Questions Thread #9

Ok here’s my question

the following hand, I think I played the river badly and missed some bets. I know if I went to 2+2 they would say I played it well.

But I believe SSHE would reccomend betting for value here.

PokerRoom 0.15/0.30 Hold’em (8 handed)

[b]Preflop:[/b] Hero is CO with 9:heart:, 8:club:. SB posts a blind of $0.15.
BB calls, [color:#666666][i]1 fold[/i][/color], UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, [color:#666666][i]1 fold[/i][/color], Hero calls, [color:#CC3333]Button raises[/color], [color:#666666][i]1 fold[/i][/color], BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

[b]Flop:[/b] (10 SB) 4:club:, 9:spade:, 7:spade: [color:#0000FF](4 players)[/color]
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, [color:#CC3333]Hero bets[/color], [color:#CC3333]Button raises[/color], BB folds, UTG+1 calls, [color:#CC3333]Hero 3-bets[/color], [color:#CC3333]Button caps[/color], UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

[b]Turn:[/b] (11 BB) 8:heart: [color:#0000FF](3 players)[/color]
UTG+1 checks, [color:#CC3333]Hero bets[/color], [color:#CC3333]Button raises[/color], UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

[b]River:[/b] (17 BB) 6:spade: [color:#0000FF](3 players)[/color]
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

[b]Final Pot:[/b] 17 BB

PS not sure if hand convert format what you would prefer, could you post a link to whatever hand convertor you prefer we use?

As I thought The hand convertor is in a bad format , sorry can’t edit

Peter

Hi Ed,

Is folding here too weak? Villain is very loose and only moderately aggressive. He has almost no preflop standards at all. I thought he could be donking an ace, a club, a 6/7, or some combination of the above. I didn’t feel like risking (in the worst case) 2 BB to win 3.75 BB. Villain did not show his hand.

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K K
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: A 5 4 (5.5SB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 8 (3.75BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to UTG+1.

Results:
Final pot: 3.75BB

Villian is 80/38/2.38
Will raise garbage preflop, bet with nothing, call with nothing, raise with nothing on any street. He is exceptionally aggressive on the river, stealing pots with huge overbets.

Is this good, bad or ugly. He will call huge bets with marginal hands.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold’em, $ BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Chris ($25)
BB ($27.64)
UTG ($195.47)
Button ($50.25)

Preflop: Chris is SB with 4, 5. Chris posts a blind of $0.10.
UTG raises to $0.5, 1 fold, Chris (poster) calls $0.40, BB calls $0.25.

Flop: ($1.50) 5, 2, 3 (3 players)
Chris bets $1.5, BB folds, UTG raises to $5, Chris pushes $24.90 (All-In), UTG calls $19.50.

Turn: ($52.40) T (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($52.40) K (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $52.40

Ed,

In early position (especially the blinds) what are the kind of hands you should be thinking about betting the flop in an unraised pot? What about a raised pot when you are not the raiser?

Hi Ed. If you wrote it, I own it.

I’ve lost 150BB in the last three days in 10 hours of play. (Which is all the money I made playing for 30 hours) I am only playing .25/.50 and .50/$1 limit

I am getting beat by players who play any ace, king, or even any queen. They raise when they have suited cards of most types and are all over the map pre-flop.

They are also agressive and wont fold (even 3-bet) when I play my marginal hands like middle pair. Should I even bother to play middle pair if a jack or beter is on the board against these guys?

Also, it almost seems to me that these fellas are regulars. I notice a lot of them from time to time.

So my questions are such;

1) is there an “Anti-Ed Miller system” out there? (These donks are playing Ed Miller’s style, so I’ll do this instead…)

2) Bodog is having a “Trade 667 points in for $10″ deal until the end of the year. Is this to generate traffic and am I just a sucker for playing right now since only regulars and such are playing?)

3) Even though there are only 4-5 players each flop, since they play so loose, should I consider it a lose game?

4) If I cannot protect my hand by raising (because they dont fold and even re-raise themselves), should I ever even bother raising marginal to good hands in game like this?

Thanks

Jim

Jim

I will leave it to Ed to answer this but believe me stick with good play you are just running bad.

Peter

Ok then here goes

I’ve lost 150BB in the last three days in 10 hours of play. (Which is all the money I made playing for 30 hours) I am only playing .25/.50 and .50/$1 limit

You lost 150 bb I and many others have lost much more whilst playing well but this is within normal variance.

You are running bad and getting unlucky just keep making the right decisions and you will get the money just not every hand.

These players who are getting lucky are loose passives or loose aggressives but they are making many mistakes and getting lucky, hat is all.
Luck plays a major part in every hand but in the long run skill and good play gets the money.

Just look for the mistakes they make and play affectively against them and if they are playing as you state then SSHE methods are the best.

You will run good at some point.

the things to watch out for are

1. Playing the same as your opponents as they seem to be winning (they are not).
2. Play too passively as this appears to work (it does not)

Poker is a game that you can win when playing badly and lose when playing well nad this because of natural learning techniques causes people to become or stay fish-DO NOT BE ONE OF THEM.

to answer the rest of your questions

1. )is there an anti ed miller sytsem

answer : how could there be Ed teaches you to think and to play depending on the opponents how can there be a better way to play than that.
If you can define what you mena by Ed Miller stle please let us know.

Also these people aren’t paying attention, so stop being paranoid.

2)Are they playing better than u. I doubt it as you state they are playing anything. A Loose player is loose whether he is a regular or not.

3) 4-5 players is a loose game , I would be very happy with a table with 4 weak tights and 4 loose passives just play TAG and play on there mistakes.

4) Protecting your hand is causing others to pay above the odds on a draw DO NOT give them a cheap draw and also make the dead money pay.
work as the payoff also comes when they miss there draw and have paid you which should be against the odds.

Hand protection does not need a fold to be profitable.

Basically after each session review your hands and ask

1) did I play well
2) could I play better

ignore results just concentrate on learning the best player in the world will be beat when running bad against a lucky fish.

BUT MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT TILT AND BECOME A FISH..

Peter

Hi Ed,

Here’s the hand again, with suits included.

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players

Preflop (6 players): Hero is CO with Kd Ks
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: Ac 5c 4h (5.5SB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 8c (3.75BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to UTG+1.

Results:
Final pot: 3.75BB

Hi Ed

won a seat in the GBPT final on eurobet which gives one seat for every 22 players at the Great british poker tour at edinburgh.

I am not by nature a NL player and cant believe I won the seat to the monthly final

see My blog

need advice
what practice should i get, what books to read etc.

Thanks in advance
Peter

Hold ‘em is played fixed-limit, pot-limit, and no-limit. Omaha hi, on the other hand, is almost always played pot-limit, and stud seems to be a strictly spread- or fixed-limit game.

Could you talk about what factors determine whether a particular type of poker will “work” with a particular betting structure?

Well thank you for replying to that. Yeah, I haven’t hit a bad streak that heavy yet and I have to take it.

When I was playing, I wrote down the hands #’s that I got killed on or had questions about. Not too surprisingly, I made a lot of mistakes above and beyond bad beats. Yeah, there were a few memorable beats, but I found many many many problems as I looked through my hands. So it wasn’t luck as much as it was me.

Some of them come from not protecting my hand, and not respecting raises enough. I’ll post of few of those as well.

But I want to share this one with you first because I really don’t know when I should have known I was in trouble. Let me know your comments.

Hand # 504135562

.50/$1 (9 players)

Hero : Ks Jh on the BB

All fold to the CO, CO bets, all call, Hero checks

Flop: 9h Qd Tc (4sb)

SB checks, Hero bets, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls

Turn: Jd (3bb)

SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls

River: 2h (5bb)

SB bets, Hero raises, SB raises, Hero raises, SB calls

SB wins with As Kc (straight) (13bb)

What I think I should have done: If raises mean something. A check raise means even a little more. With a straight, I wouldn’t have folded, but should have slowed down the river and just checked/called it down. When he check raised when the jack hit, it meant something larger than normal. His straight could have been 78 or he just had a king. He is on the SB, so he could have a lot of hands. I kept AK pretty much out of my head. No, actually I did consider it, and passed it off.

I probally wasn’t right to jam it at the river. I mean maybe one raise, but not two. if he had 87, I beat him. We split it. If he had AK, I lose. I don’t think most players would have re-rasied with 87 knowing that a K could beat them.

Question at hand: When should I have gotten the clue that he had the nut straight and not a regular one? When should I have stopped betting?

Would have saved : If I would have called the river, 3bb

Well, I will have more posts soon. I will post a more mundane example of why to protect you hand I think next.

Jim

Well, here’s another real quick about not protecting my hand. And another mistake that cost me even more.

.25/.50 (9 players)

Hero : 9h 9c at UTG+2

All fold to Hero, Hero raises, MP1 calls, all fold to blinds, blinds complete and call.

Flop: 9s Jc 4s (8sb)

Blinds check. Hero checked, thinking he would check raise if MP1 would bet. MP1 checks.

Turn: 6c (4bb)

Blinds check, Hero bets, MP1 rasies, Blinds fold, Hero raises, MP1 calls

River: Kd (10bb)

MP1 bets, Hero Raises, MP1 raises, Hero caps, MP1 calls

MP1 wins with Kh 6h (Two pair) (18bb)

Questions at hand:

What you should have done: Bet out the flop. Yeah, most guys were playing tight when I was in at this point. (as you can tell when I raised pre-flop.) And I wanted action on the flop. I didn’t get it and there was only one guy to go. I should have bet.

Yeah, I could have gotten everyone to fold right there, but that would have been a good thing and not bad. So in able to try for more bets, I ended up making a bad move that not only cost me bets, but the pot as well in the end. MP1 probally would have folded on my flop bet.

Also, on the river, I didn’t give him any credit for possibly having a King. I don’t know why I did that. Especially after he bet right out. That cost me. I think I thought he was bluffing or something. Even then, why would he think I would have folded for on bet after all the action on the turn? So he wasn’t bluffing. So that just cost me more.

Would have saved : around 5bb

Hand # 507247425

.25/.50 (9 players)

Hero : As Kc at CO

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, all fold to Hero, Hero rasies, Button and blinds fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls

Flop: 5h 5d 8s (6sb)

UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero folds

Turn: Ad (5bb)

UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, UTG calls

River: 3d (9bb)

UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, UTG calls

UTG wins with Ac 8c (Two pair) (11bb)

Would have done differently: Nothing. But it’s interesting to see how the “raises meam something” worked out here. Usually, it’s the raiser you have to worry about. In this case, UTG+1 had Ah 9h and was trying to either bluff out the UTG, or he thought UTG was bluffing. Seeing how UTG bet back at him. I would say he may have thought the same.

Either way, even though the raiser didn’t have something, the original bettor did. It was good to assume that BOTH players couldn’t be bluffing. Sometimes I will be wrong about that and they’ll both have nothing, but it isn’t worh the cost to find out.

First off, I was sandwiched in between. After UTG+1 rasied the flop, It could have been worse for me to call the bet, just to find out UTG would raise and cost me another (or just finally fold for 2 sb).

Bottom line, I think there are too many reasons to fold here against possible rewards.

Would have saved : nothing, and lost if I were to play it over and over again.

By the way, just wanted to make sure you understood that these are from my notes trying to figure out what I have done wrong. Like a student writing an essay. I am NOT trying to teach. I am posting these to get thoughts and comments from you folks to check to see if I am right or not.

OK, just wanted to clear that up.

Jim

Ed,

Thanks for giving a listen. I appriciate it. That above hand where I say I had 99, I actualy had Qs Qc. Sorry bout that.

Ed,
I’ve been reading “Mathematics of Poker” and they have worked out “Jam or Fold Tables” in chapter 12, which seem to be addressing the same situation as the Sklansky-Chubukov Rankings, yet they don’t seem to correlate. Can you elucidate this?

thanks,
ozone

Win pots, not bets.

.25/.50 (9 players)

Hero : Jd Jc at MP3

UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls , MP2 calls, Hero raises, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, all call.

Flop: 8h 9s 9h (15sb)

SB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG +2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls

Turn: Ts (11.5bb)

SB checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets, SB raises, all call.

River: Kd (19.5bb)

All check to Hero. Hero checks.

MP2 wins with Kh 5h (Two of a Kind) 19.5bb

MP1 had Ah 7h. SB had As 6h.

What I should have done: These guys were very loose and agressive. As soon as I got check raised on the turn by the SB. I was thinking I was beat by a slowplayed trips or he hit a straight. But I had the outs to continue.

Four 7’s would give me a good straight, that would split at the least. 3 outs.

Four Q’s would give me an ok straight, not as much confidence with them as with the sevens, since JT would beat me. Give it 3 outs.

Of course two J were left to beat trip 9’s, but would put a straight on the board as well, so I could only count one out there.

Seven outs is 6-1. Pot was 10-1 with his raise. I’m ok.

This river play is my main problem. It gets checked to me. It’s already been check-raised on the turn by the SB. I am thinking that he still had something big and trying to drop me for another bet so I checked with every one else.

Could I have knocked out the better hand here with a bet? Well, no. Probally not. It’s what he was waiting for wasn’t it? He didn’t have anything else at all. But that’s not really the point anyway.

The point is since the pot is so large would it have been worth the extra bet to try to knock others out at the point?

The pot is huge here. So it’s worth calling for a bet, why not put it in myself? Worst case: I get raised (then I can fold peacefully). Best case: I get the best hand to fold.

What do you think? Does “Win pots, not bets.” come into play here?

Hi Ed

I am struggling with the notion or process of controlling pot size especially out of position.
I am playing .5/1 NL 100max at Party. This is a hypothetical situation but one which I am struggling to get to grips with. Say I am in UTG+1 I raise to $3 with KK and get one caller in LP. Caller has same stack size as me at $100.
Flop comes Q73 rainbow I bet $5 into the $7.5 pot and LP calls. I never find it easy after this point when I have raised and then get called on the flop and we have deep stacks. How should I proceed now. It is these way ahead or way behind situations that are so difficult to get to grips with(I am hoping your new book helps a lot with this). If the stacks are a lot shallower then I probably have to go all the way here. But I have read about controlling pot size when in position but not when out of position. I know most of these sort of situations are player dependant but lets assume the caller is a splid player. Thanks

Hey there Ed.

You DVD set is great for starting me off on the shorthanded end of play (Advanced Pre-Flop Strategies. I finally understand the concept of when to get in and such. But I still have a problem playing shorthanded.

Against better players, I can handle myself in mutil-pot situations, but I walk on eggsheels once it gets heads-up before the flop. I know things change when you go heads-up on the flop, I just don’t know what they are and how to react to them.

Do you have a reference of what to read to learn heads-up play?

Also, since we are talking pre-flop strategies, at the table I was at today (and most days) I am seen as a tighty. How often should I bluff at a pot and/or raise early with something less than optimal to mix it up without getting expensive?

Thanks

Jim

Hi Ed,

My question addresses blind play. According to SSH, I should complete the small blind with any XYs, any two ten or higher, and all PPs. I’m confused though, as to when it is appropriate to loosen up beyond this if there are many limpers. Say I’m in small blind, 4 players limp and I hold Q5o. Since I’m getting around 11-1 from the pot, should I call? What should I consider when making such decisions?

About the big blind play: SSH suggests calling against a raise the same hands I would play in late position for one bet (minus weak offsuit holdings, e.g. KT). Say a tight player raises from middle position and gets one cold-caller; if I hold something like KTs/QJs, should I call because of the pot odds or should I fold because I fear domination? I seem to be conflicting the two concepts.

A rule/etiquette situation arose last night at my house game, which is a NL Tournament, and we didn’t know the legality of a particular move. Maybe you can help us out.

Two players left in a large pot, turn card done, and player 1 (first to act) goes all in. Player 2 contemplates for a awhile and then declares “I am not not making a call” and turns over his cards (not mucking them). Player 1 moves to flip his cards over and Player 2 reminds him that he has not called yet. Player 1 stops his movement. Player 2 then folds his hand.

The question: Is it legal to turn over your cards while you are still in the hand and you are not folding? After the hand was over, Player 2 stated that it is within his rights to turn cards over without folding and that he did so in attempt to see if Player 1 would give away a tell/read on his cards. Player 1 (and a couple others) felt that it is not legal to turn your cards over while you’re still in the hand. What would be the ruling here? (I’m reminded of the Jamie Gold vs Allan Cunningham similar situation at the final table at WSOP main event in 2006)

Thanks,
Daryl