Questions Thread #14

Too Frisky?

(Sorry about no hand conversion)

.25/.50 NLHE on Bodog

No reads except that the table has been pretty passive

Dealt 7d8d UTG (stack ~$50)

Questionable play #1

I limp UTG (yes, this is where my problem starts, but the table has been really passive)

MP limps, SB completes, BB checks his option

Flop comes Jd6s5d giving me a big draw

I put MP on hands like small pairs, suited connectors, weak suited As and suited Ks. Pretty wide range. Blinds are any 2 cards.

No one has shown any strength, so I represent a made hand and lead for $2.00

MP (stack ~$30) raises to $4.00
SB folds
BB folds

Questionable play #2
min-raise is a little fishy, is it the lady or the tiger? I don’t read him for a set or 2 pair with that little raise on that draw heavy a board. I’ve represented a J or some sort of middle pair. I put him on top pair moderate kicker. Something like QJ or JT trying to shake out a complete bluff without over committing.

Pot is $8

I raise to $20 putting about 2/3s of his stack in the middle. (too frisky?)
MP smooth calls (crap)

Now, I have to give him credit for a made hand. My range now has AJs at the bottom, 55, 66 or 56 seem pretty likely. I don’t put him on a draw.

Turn is 7s for a board of Jd5s6d7s

Questionable play #3

I can’t see getting away from the had as MP only has $10 behind, so I move in. I can’t see him folding, maybe, just maybe he was on a draw that he would lay down on the turn unlikely as that may be (remarkable things happen at this level). I’m calling if he moves in getting 5.5 to 1 so I don’t postpone the inevitable.

I feel like all my flush outs are good except maybe 5d. I think my straight outs are good. I can’t put him on 78s or 89s after calling the flop raise. I also think 2 7s may be good against 1/2 his range or so.

River is 6h for a final board of Jd5s6d7s6h

Thoughts?

Well if at first you don’t succeed, ask ask again!

Ed I know your blog is primarily about poker but you did give a few good investment book reviews in the past and I think it would be great to have a little more of that.

What did you think of Malkiel’s “A Random Walk Down Wall Street”?

Did you ever get a chance to read Stanley’s “The Millionaire Next Door” or Clason’s “The Richest Man in Babylon?”

Wow that was a fast response, thanks Ed…

I’m not really trying to prod you to read more books right away. Most of all I am just trying to point out some books that I think would be beneficial to just about anyone who reads this blog. If you actually get a chance to post reviews of them then that would be great, but of course there is only one of you and I know there is a limit on how much time you have…

Hey Ed,

Can I do anything about people slow playing aces on me at low limit. I used to play 1/2 full ring and I’ve dropped down to .50./1 6 max and I get this all the time. Is their an merit in playing like the villain did, or should I just be happy that he’s not playing his aces profitably and move on.

I thought I played this OK, I thought the guy on the button was the one I was trying to beat.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold’em (6 handed) [url=http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php]Hand History Converter Tool[/url] from [url=http://www.flopturnriver.com]FlopTurnRiver.com[/url] (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

[b]Preflop:[/b] Hero is CO with K[img]http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP =#A500AF(Villain)/ calls, [color=#CC3333]Hero raises[/color], [color=#CC3333]Button 3-bets[/color], [color=#666666][i]2 folds[/i][/color], UTG calls, MP =#A500AF(Villain)/ calls, Hero calls.

[b]Flop:[/b] (13.50 SB) 5[img]http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/club.gif[/img], 8[img]http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/diamond.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](4 players)[/color]
UTG checks, Villain checks, Hero checks, [color=#CC3333]Button bets[/color], UTG calls, Villain calls, Hero calls.

[b]Turn:[/b] (8.75 BB) K[img]http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/club.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](4 players)[/color]
UTG checks, Villain checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero bets[/color], [color=#CC3333]Button raises[/color], UTG folds, Villain calls, Hero calls.

[b]River:[/b] (14.75 BB) 9[img]http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/spade.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](3 players)[/color]
Villain checks, Hero checks, [color=#CC3333]Button bets[/color], Villain calls, Hero calls.

[b]Final Pot:[/b] 17.75 BB

Ed, please more posts about mental state !

Sorry for my English in advance. It’s not my native language.

I’m playing poker for a few months now. I read GSIH a few times and I’m a half way through the SSHE. The only thing that bothers me is that these two books are mainly written for loose small stakes games with at least 3-5 players seeing the flop. Maybe those games were so loose some time from now but they ain’t no more nowaday according to my Poker Tracker stats. I logged about 30k hands at Party’s micro limits and stats are showing 25.13 ASF (average saw flop percentage) with 9.1 AP (average number of players per hand). So that means only there’s only slightly above 2 players seeing the flop on average, if these stats are correct. I don’t know, maybe the stats are wrong but I don’ think that’s the case.

My question is what are the basic adjustment that have to be made in those conditions?

Keep up the great work.

Best regards
Anatoly

“If you think I missed a good question, please don’t be shy about asking it again. I don’t mind seeing a question again, especially a good one. :)”

You didn’t give your comments on this hand the last time I posted it. I’m still wondering if I played the hand well, so I give it another try. *Fingers crossed*

A common situation when you play shorthanded limit hold ‘em, is when you have Ace-high or a small pair versus an opponent who might be on a draw. Is this a good spot to raise the turn for a free showdown?

Preflop: Hero is Button with Ac, Qs.
3 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) Jc, 3h, 8h (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 4s (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 6c (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

By raising the turn, I thought I’d charge my opponent the most if he was on a draw. I also thought there was a chance he’d fold a hand he shouldn’t fold, like 3x, 8x, a small pocket pair or a hand like 97.

What do you think of my play? Also, would you have played the hand differentely if you had 22, 55 or K3?

Why didn’t my question come up. I waited for it to come up, then I posted it again, and Wordpress said I was posting duplicate content. But it still hasn’t come up.

I don’t think it was the spam filter, it was my html.

OK, here’s one from short handed (5 max) fixed limit game.

Preflop: Hero is SB with Ks, 4s.
2 folds, Button limps, Hero completes, BB checks.

Completing the small blind with K4 suited is perhaps not alltogether bad play after a button limp? Depends on BB’s playing style too, perhaps.

Flop: (3.0 SB) Kd Jd 4h (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, Button bets, Hero calls, BB calls.

So we flopped two pair, Kings and fours.

Now, the pot isn’t that large, though in 5 max game it rarely is at this point. And I’m not giving the Button any credit for a hand here so I opted for a trying to slowplay by just calling.

My two pair isn’t a monster here, but in three way pots it’s a very strong hand.

Turn: (3.0 BB) 6s (3 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, Button calls.

It’s still a small pot, so I wanted to generate more action on the turn, perhaps getting a reraise from either players. Donk-betting the turn might seem like a dubious move for someone with a big pair here.

River: (6.0 BB) Ah (2 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, Button reraises, Hero calls.

I’m just assuming here that the Ace doesn’t help anyone, or helps someone that has called down with Ace-nothing. Maybe check-call would have been in order here?

Final Pot: 10.0 BB

(I’ll tell you what the opponent had in a later comment if you’re interested.)

Jarno,

So first let me say that I don’t understand limit at all so anything I say is likely to be dumb.

So why aren’t you throwing in a 3rd raise on the end? It seems like the strength of your hand has been under represented to some extent. The hands you worry about are A(KJ64), QT, KJ, KK, JJ, 66, and 44. Only 44, 66 and maybe QT don’t raise preflop on the button. I really think a lot of times you have the best hand here. At least more often than you have the worst hand. The button has to believe you are on a draw as often as you have some sort of real hand.

In no limit, I’d happily spend a pot sized bet on the river with K’s over 4’s on a board that had high/low and flush draws that all missed. Seems like the worst thing that could happen to you here is that you get re-raised and end up putting in a bit more than a pot sized bet. It seems like an easy call. I think that are a lot of Axs, suited Ks, middle pairs plus QJ, TJ that would play more or less the same way.

Ok, now tell me where all of my limit assumptions are wrong.

Another hand from 5 max short handed fixed limit. Four players on the table as of that moment. The question is primarily about the river.

Preflop: Hero is Button with Ac, Qc.
1 folds, Hero raises, SB folds, BB calls.

Standard raise with AQs on the button.

Flop: (4.25 SB) Jc 9h 10s (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB raises, Hero calls.

BB bets out and I raise partly semi-bluff with open-ended straight draw and partly for value. BB 3-bets and I call. I’m giving him some credit for his hand, he obviously doesn’t give me any credit for my hand.

He could have a made hand, but maybe he’s thinking that I flopped air.

Turn: (5.0 BB) 5s (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

BB continues betting, which could indicate a strong hand. But it’s 6-to-1 to my open-ended straight draw (even though with just a one card) and a couple of overcards, so I guess it’s OK to just call here.

River: (7.0 BB) Qs (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Queen on the river gives me the top pair with top kicker, but it also completes a possible straight draw and a possible flush draw. I was kinda afraid of a check-raise but the other possibility is just running out of bullets to bluff the pot. Pair of queens with ace kicker does have a good chance of getting called by worse hands, so I guess betting would have been fine here?

Final Pot: 7.0 BB

(You’ll see the showdown later if anyone’s interested.)

Jarno,

Again, limit knowledge, not good, probably dumb.

It seems like there is nothing you beat here except AJ or maybe AT and you have nothing but a bluff catcher. KQ, KJ, QJ, QT, straights, backdoor flushes, 9T, TJ, J9, Q9, Q8, J8. Unless he’s weak enough to fold 2 pair, checking it down seems right to me.

Todd

Hi Ed and everyone else,

Thanks for a great website.

I’ve been playing NLH 6-max for 2 years online and recently started playing $5/$10 after successfully working my way up. The following situation rarely occurred at $1/$2 and below and sometimes at $2/$4 and $3/$6 but not enough to be a major problem. But at $5/$10, this type of hand is a frequent occurrence:

Assume 100 big blind effective stacks

Dealt to Hero [ Jd Qd ]
2 folds.
Hero raises $30
1 fold
Villain calls
1 fold
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7c, Qs, 5h ]
Villain checks.
Hero bets [$50]
Villain raises [$ 150 USD]
Hero ???

At lower levels I could instafold because most players are passive and semi-bluff/stone bluff raising in this situation is rare. At $5/$10 though this happens a lot and clearly only a few of them are due to sets/AQ. If you call the reraise the Villain will nearly always bet 80% of the pot or more on the Turn whether he has anything or not.

I’ve had to admit to myself that I’m at a loss as to how to handle this situation. It’s even worse if I’m out of position post-flop.

I don’t want to call off 100 big blinds with the second best hand but I also can’t afford to be continually bluffed off top pair. Help!

Hi Todd,

Don’t be shy about your fixed limit knowledge, you most certainly know more than me.

About the first of my hands, I remember very confused at the river, but still believing that I had the best hand. I guess I got afraid not undertanding what was happening. I think that’s often a side effect of slowplaying your hand.

Now, the opponent had AKo, which is kinda weird considering how he played, because he didn’t raise preflop (on the button). (No idea why he did that, because there’s simply no reason to “slowplay” AK preflop.)

He bet out on the flop with TPTK, which is reasonable enough, but he didn’t raise on the turn, which makes absolutely no sense. With the lucky Ace on the river, he just raised because of the two pair.

Then on the second hand, well, I was not as confused as I was in the previous hand, but it turned out the opponent had A3o (with no flush draws at any point of the hand). I guess it’s reasonable enough to defend with A3o, but after donk-betting the flop and getting raised, I don’t know what he thought I had.

The reason I asked about this hand was just that the range of hands I tried to put the opponent didn’t justify a value bet on the river. Though I’m not sure whether the opponent would have called with Ace high either.

Thanks for the comments.

OK, here’s an NL one where I make a thin value bet. Keep in mind that I really suck at NL and my thought processes may be totally wrong.

The game is 1/2 NL at Bally’s LV about 1 AM on a Tuesday and I’m at a table full of gambl0rs.

Stacks– I gots about $300, the main villain has about $200. Most everyone else has at least $150. But it’s hard to tell–you know how gambl0rs are with their chips.

I have the button with Jd Td. 10 players. 4 people limp, villain in CO raises to $10, I call, both blinds call and everybody calls. Yes, that’s right, it’s no limit and we’re 8 handed for $75 (once the rake is subtracted).

Flop is 9d 3d 2c. Checks to the villain. He bets $30. Of course, I didn’t think about this problem when I decided to call preflop. Here he is giving me over 3-1 immediate odds on a decent draw, but I have 6 people behind me. Hm. Oh, well, I call anyway. Oddly enough, everyone else folds. What a strange game. The pot is now $135.

Now we have to put Villain on a range of hands. Trouble is, he has been raising a lot preflop, and with all kinds of utter garbage. His bet could’ve been a c-bet. It could be top pair. It could be a medium PP. His underbet is perplexing, because he usually bets more.

Turn is Tc. Villain checks. My hand is most likely good here, but if I make a bet of any decent size here I’ll bloat this pot to over $200 and that’s the last thing I want with my TPWK. Further, if he senses weakness he might bluff at me. So I check behind him.

River is 4h. Villain checks again. That confirms my suspicion that he could have a 9, a medium pocket pair like 88 or 77, or nothing. I figure if he has anything else he’ll bet. He declined to bluff, though. So now we have to wonder–will he call a small value bet? I decide he will and bet $40.

My question is mostly about the value bet on the end, but feel free to tell me how I screwed up at all points in the hand.

Jarno,

People show down some remarkable hands sometimes. I would never have put that guy on AK.

That second hand I’m still checking down. You’re beaten by a million hands that would have to call a bet on the end and only beat a couple of hands. Of those, most just can’t really call.

Todd

cpk,

Given that you’re at a table of gamblers, it might be a good time to gamble with your 2 overs, flush draw + back door straight. Move on in. Villain only has ~160 behind, so it isn’t that much of an overbet.

It is tasty odds to call along. I think that is ok too. I’m shocked, shocked! that you didn’t get any more callers. Sort of amazing on that board. A limpers paradise.

On the turn, the most important question there is can he fold an overpair or top pair? If you don’t think he can, then I would check behind. Otherwise, I think I would bet the turn. You have a lot of hand there. If you put 2/3 of his ramaining stack in the middle, he can’t really call without a good hand and you have a ton of outs. He can only shove or fold. If he shoves, you’re pretty much priced in.

On the end, I don’t think the villain has 2 pair. Probably doesn’t have a set. Is he the sort of player who would check-raise a big hand like A5s or 56s on the end? More likely hands are middle pair maybe. Busted draw. He could, though, have an overpair that he was afraid to bet or a hand like ATs, KTs or QTs. I think it is very reasonable to check call with any of these medium strength hands.

There are a couple of hands you beat that might call, a couple of hands you beat that won’t call, a couple of hands that you don’t beat that will call and 1 or 2 hands that you don’t beat that will raise. If this player is capable of check/raise bluffing that’s another strike against betting. On balance, I think the situation hasn’t changed for the better since the turn and I think I’m going to check it down.

Thoughts?

Todd

My head is full of hypotheticals. Most the time I play Poker at 50/1, 1/2 NL and it is a case of raise, bet, fold…”Oh right. That was easy”. But for some reason it’s problems like the one below that keeps me awake and leads me to nihilistic thoughts that No Limit is a deeply flawed game.
Let’s say I have 100BB and raise 3BB’s with QQ and get called by the button who has a similar stack size (I am online and no nothing about this player). Flop: 10-5-3 rainbow; I bet 5 into a $7 pot and get raised another $15 so if I call I am left with just under $80 for the turn and river. Now, what has he got? I can’t ‘put him on’ anything as I know nothing so all I can do is guess. He may have JJ, A-10 99, 88, etc all of which I beat. He may have flop trips or (and I see this a quite often at 50/1)he slowplayed KK,AA and he’s now raising them. What do I do?
One line of reasoning would be that the hands you beat are more likely than the hands that beat you so you’re in but obviously if we do end up all in he’s probably got me. I suppose a call may be okay to see how he responds on the turn: if he bets big fold if he checks yippee do. The trouble is with this is that at these stakes there are players who would be as confident as all hell that thir Jacks, A-10

My head is full of hypotheticals. Most of the time I play it is at 50./1, 1/2 NL and is a case of raise, bet, fold…”Oh right. That was easy”. But for some reason it’s problems like the one below that keep me awake and lead me to nihilistic thoughts that No Limit is a deeply flawed game.
Let’s say I have 100BB and raise 3BB’s with QQ and get called by the button who has a similar stack size (I am online and no nothing about this player). Flop: 10-5-3 rainbow; I bet $5/6 into a $7 pot and get raised another $15 so if I call I am left with just under $80 for the turn and river. Now, what has he got? He may have JJ, A-10, 99, 88, etc, or overcards and is raising believing I’ve missed the flop. He may have flopped a set or (and I see this quite often at 50/1)he slowplayed KK,AA and he’s now raising with them. What can a poor boy do?
One line of reasoning would be that the hands you beat are more likely than the hands that beat you so you’re in but if we do end up all in he’s probably got me. I suppose a call may be okay to see how he responds on the turn: if he bets big, fold, if he checks, “yippee do”. The trouble is that at these stakes there are players who would be as confident as all hell that their Jacks, A-10,etc are still good because you didn’t raise back on the flop! They will bet half the pot on the Turn, after you check, leaving you in a quandry. I could raise back on the flop (say, $20/30) and see what he does but he may just call with hands I beat (JJ ~ loose but I’ve seen it) or with those that beat me (KK). Am I better off going all in if I’m going to play? Obviously I could fold and put it down to poor position. There seems something slightly weak about this play against an unknown quantity, but maybe not. What’s a good default or is this one you have to play on a whim?
Do I sound whiney? I hope not because I love this stuff!

Thanks.

BB,

I hate this sort of hand too. I think the only hand I hate more is when I flop a weak top pair in the blinds in a multiway limped pot. Cash just flows from my account.

I think calling is probably the worst thing to do. Now you’ve called, checked and shown weakness and he bets. What do you do? Call again and call off all your stack on the river? Yuck.

If I had a reasonably strong overpair and wasn’t reraised on the flop, I’d think it is good more than it is not. One of the first decisions I make with a hand when a pot starts brewing is “am I willing to stack off with it?” In this case, I think not. I wouldn’t stack off with this hand for 100BB. I would probably stack off with 60-70BB or so. It’s a good hand heads up and you beat a lot of things. The guy playing back at you is often playing back at a perceived continuation bet. He may have something as weak as 2nd pair. Sometimes worse depending on how agressive he is. So, I think you need to raise or fold here. I would raise $25 or $30. If he calls or shoves, I’m done with the hand. He may take away the pot on the turn, but I think that is the price of position. You get to do the same thing to the guy on your right.

Any thoughts? Too much money on a moderately strong hand?

Todd

Baggie Boy,

This is always a pulse-quickening scenario for sure. I’m going to take a stab so I can compare my thinking with the good stuff later on.

Obviously it is much harder with no reads. Of course, a set is certainly possible and the worst scenario. In these situations I tend to think that the other player thinks I raised with 2 big cards here. An aggressive player on the button is going to come at me here if he hits much of the flop. Hoping to take it down right there or keep me from drawing to an overcard without paying.

With position I would maybe call here (probably raise though) and let him fire again, but oop much harder because of having to go first next round. AND if an overcard comes or board pairs you don’t know what to do.

I would reraise here. The pot is 19 bb’s before the extra 15. So 15 to you with a pot of 34 bb’s. If he had a set with position I think he let’s you fire again. 2 pair you have some outs. There are no strong draws on board. After matching his 15 pot is 49bb’s. You have 80 bb’s left. I pot commit with a 50bb raise. I want a call and plan on all the money going in eventually. I like giving implied odds of 2.6 to 1 on his most likely hands.

I look at it this way. If I get a flop like that with a hand like that and I can’t take some flop heat from a player with position, I might as well go all in preflop and at least pick up the blinds. I think this is a favorable gambling situation and you have to go with it. Probably even more so with no reads.

I know I don’t have expert thinking but I hope I’m on the “right track”.

CPK,

Here is my stab. Hardly ever do Gamboolers back off on the turn like that. I think he was betting a draw of some kind. Maybe suited ace but also suited connectors, any pocket pair.

Anyway, another common phenom from gamblers who aren’t very good poker players is they will try the free card bet or raise from oop, not thinking ahead to how that’s impossible. When he checks the turn I am absolutely betting here.

Amount I am not sure. His last 160 might stop him when he might call 100 thinking he can win more if he hits ( these guys ignore implied numbers pretty much) I am ok with a call. But again, he misses the river and you don’t get the last 60. I probably shove here. I think you can completely rule out a better T or overpair. Gamblers like this don’t slow down when things look good. I think you definitely have the best hand here and therefore you should bet. No free card to beat you. And if he folds, that’s fine. Now no card will beat you. The only reason I would not be shoving is to entice a bad call here of a lesser amount.

Tivo,

I will be really interested to see an experienced response here. I have played a moderate amount of limit sh, but only interspersed minutes at nl.

I hate checking but I am starting to learn sometimes it’s about pot-size control. I don’t know the answer here. Checking the flop and waiting to the turn and then trying a raise yourself (barring a bad turn card). It doesn’t look like a board that would be that risky to give a free card. But I am a convert to nl with no sh experience, so like I said, I am anxious to see the answer.

Stack size matters too. I got check-raised in a nl hand awhile back and was at a loss. I don’t know if it applies here, but Ed explaind with those stack sizes ( comp to your effective sizes ) the 2nd bet has the power. ShortStacked might be the first and DEEP stacks the 3rd bet is the more powerful(advantageous). That is a simplistic synopsis and I dont’ know if it applies here, but ever since Ed’s explanation I take it into account when deciding whether to bet or peal one off.

I meant peel.

Jamleeco,

…snip…

I would reraise here. The pot is 19 bb’s before the extra 15. So 15 to you with a pot of 34 bb’s. If he had a set with position I think he let’s you fire again. 2 pair you have some outs. There are no strong draws on board. After matching his 15 pot is 49bb’s. You have 80 bb’s left. I pot commit with a 50bb raise. I want a call and plan on all the money going in eventually. I like giving implied odds of 2.6 to 1 on his most likely hands.

…snip…

What sort of range do you put the villain on if he smooth calls or shoves? I’m thinking something like {TT+, 55, 33, 53s} + some bluff. 53s seems like to only reasonable 2 pair hand, but maybe that is too conservative. The number of 2 pair hands seems key here. A more connected board gives you more 2 pair hands to draw out against. With that range QQ has 25ish% equity. It’s break even more or less if you raise another $25. You are pretty much going all the way with KK (45%) or AA (60%). JJ isn’t looking so good. If you raise $35 then you’d want to get it in with QQ as well. Add in AT and KT or make the board a little more connected and I think you get it all in with QQ and JJ a little more often.

So here’s my opinion in sum:

I’m making a $25ish reraise

BB BB > 150 maybe continueing with AA depending on board, reads, connectedness, etc
BB > 150 I’m letting them all go to pressure.

Opinions?

Todd

try this again (less than symbols interpreted as tags, doh)

BB less than 80 I’m going all the way with JJ+
BB between 80 and 120 I’m going all the way with AA, KK and maybe QQ depending on read and high or low end of the range
BB between 120 and 150 maybe continueing with AA depending on board, reads, connectedness, etc
BB greater than 150 I’m letting them all go to pressure.

Opinions?

Todd

I believe the range is wide. ATs through T9s for tens alone. Looking good. All pockets except A’s or K’s of course, looking real good. A small raise from mp and a guy calls on the button and then goes for the pot on the flop–I think the range is wide and favorable to our 2Q’s with 80bb’s. The 2 pair combo’s are the most unlikely, and pocket 3’s,5’s or T’s are possible for a total of 9 ways.

I know you have to be cautious with Big Pairs or TPTK in NL, but I think in this scenario with this flop this is not one of those times. If you don’t know this player, then he probably does not know you either. I think you are going to get challenged with a lot of hands here, maybe even AK or other big A, depending on the player. Not knowing this player and with the wide range of hands and these size stacks I cannot see not getting committed and I say the sooner in the hand the better.

If there are players slow-playing AA or KK here with a preflop raise and then tipping their hand this soon with that flop and position, well, I think that is grand. Especially with K’s letting a possible big A have cheap shot at them and then chasing you out when no A comes on the flop?

Anything is possible I guess, and maybe I am taking an overaggressive stance here, if so I hope Ed steps in and slaps me on the nose so I know better. I just think giving up here is weak and if you don’t give up then I think you have to be ready to play for your stack.

If I had a deeper stack, like 150 bb’s, then I would pop it back about 20-25 bb’s and see what happens, still able to get away if it becomes fairly obvious you are beat. That much money behind SHOULD affect how he played after a reraise and be more reliable then having 40bb’s left behind. But, even if I’m dead wrong ( a distinct possibility) it is really fun and helpful discussing the hands like this.

Ed,

I’m chewing over a decision I made last night and would like an objective view. I’ve become a regular reader of you articles, which I find both thought-provoking and entertaining, although I have some work to do to catch up: I’m still reading the posts from December 2006. On to the problem:

We’re at the final table of a live NLH tournament: nine players remain, six places pay. I have a stack of around 14BB, which is above average, when I’m dealt K-K in the big blind. There are two limpers ahead of me, and I raise to a total of 5BB. One of the limpers calls. He’s a calling station and seems to call any raise once he’s limped, and has got this far by mostly hitting his hands. After the call, my remaining stack is around the size of the pot, and his is around 3BB less than mine. The flop is A-x-x and I’m out of position. What next?

Given that my opponent has previously called pre-flop raises with holdings such as unsuited medium connectors, I’m unable to guage how likely it is that he holds an ace. I’ve also seen him bet weak draws, so if I check and he bets I’m still not convinced I’m beaten. A small bet would almost certainly be called, and would also commit me.

What happened is that I pushed and he called, showing A-2 off-suit. Against another player I would have given more consideration to retreating after the flop and saving my

Richard,

First, I don’t care who the player is, I’m going broke with that hand. With 9BB behind there is no way to make any reasonable determination about what he limp/called with and have any money behind.

Pre-flop you should have moved in. You’re effective M is under 10. The blinds are screaming up. No reason to wait. There is no way you can get away from the hand if you bet preflop. Pick up the limpers money and be happy. If you get a call be happier, you’re way ahead. You’ll find that you will often get calls from under pairs that want to race against 2 overs. Great situation for you.

The only reason to raise less than that is if you want to get a call and get it all in after the flop. That’s what happened. Get it in. There is no way you can lay that hand down. For every time he has A2o and can’t lay it down on an A high flop, there are 3 times he has 88, 99, KQ or some ratty thing that he shouldn’t be playing when the stacks are so short. Look at it this way. If you fold and have 9BB left. If you fold for an orbit + your SB you’ll have 7BB (If the blinds haven’t moved up). At that point, you should really be thinking about open pushing a HUGE range of hands when it’s folded to you preflop. In this hand you have 2nd pair. You’re in much better shape now then you will end up in later. Go broke, don’t feel bad. That’s tournament poker.

Cheers folks, good stuff.
I warmed to the idea of a $25 re-raise as I would still have about half my stack intact if I figure I’m beat. The only problem I have with this is it is a bet that is PROBABLY only going to be called by someone that has me beat ~ it’s seems a lot of loot to spend to gather information. Also if you do raise back then you may lose a few maniac/fool types who would bet their 2~6 outers(A-10, JJ, AK etc) on the turn but fold to your raise. I tend to approach problems with the attitude of not wanting to lose much moneybut it’s a shame to miss out on extra oppertunities to win more that the maniacs give you.
Now, this may sound contradictory and over cautious but I am actually swaying towards the call as I think it shows a fair amount of resolve. Most players would see that $15 call as fairly strong and be reluctant to put in more unless they had you. Obviously if you fold to a sizable Turn bet then you are missing out on the chance to stack the maniac but as you have no reads you probably have to assume he’s reasonably logical. As Todd says, ‘…it is the price of position’ and, sickening as it may be half an hour later when you see the flop raiser going completely spastic every other hand, I would probably fold to pressure on the Turn after a player has seen me call a pot size raise.
Incidentally if I knew the player to be a maniac or the aggressive type then I would probably call his raise and then check-raise the turn. He may have a few outs if he’s connected but it’s a small risk to take, I believe, if you can win another big bet off of him if not all his stack.
I’m looking forward to the new book as well, Ed. It’s a great game but I sometimes wish I could play it with a bit more confidence and I hope the book helps. It’s not the winning or losing that troubles me it’s the ‘not knowing’. I sometimes win a huge pot or lose a huge one but either way sit there, staring at the screen, with my mouth wide open like I’ve just watched a David Lynch film. Still, it’s all good fun.

Sorry, the anonymous was me.

Jamleeco, BB,

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I believe the range is wide. ATs through T9s for tens alone.
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I think this is true for the first raise. The {TT+, 55, 33, 53s} range is if he shoves over you’re re-raise. At that point, I really can’t give him credit for a weak top pair (or I’m putting that in my bluff allowance).

Given that range, I think QQ is the break even hand for a $25 re-raise. I don’t know that it matters whether you call or fold. How much do you like to play a short stack vs. reloading if you’re beat is the question there. Once you pop him $30, and I really do think you have to pop him, you sort of have to call the overshove with QQ and 100BB stacks.

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think you are going to get challenged with a lot of hands here, maybe even AK or other big A, depending on the player
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Yes, for sure. Which is why I think you really have to re-raise. You can’t let a 2nd pair hand or a no pair hand take that pot away from you when it is rightfully yours.

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I just think giving up here is weak and if you don’t give up then I think you have to be ready to play for your stack
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I think the most interesting thing about this hand is that QQ and 100BB are in a really sensitive range for a re-raise/overshove. Any frisky re-raise commits you. Will this villain play 35s to an open raise? Will this villain overshove with AT? If you had KK it’s a pretty easy re-raise/call. JJ or AT and it’s probably a re-raise/fold or call/lead fold to pressure.

Todd

Richard,

I’m with Todd on this one. There’s nothing you could have done different other than raise all in pre~flop, although I would probably have done what you did. With AK I would stick it in and be happy with fold, fold, fold…With a pair of Kings I think if someone will call you all the better so I’d be swayed towards the 5BB raise you made. Every bet counts at that stage and I think it’s worth taking the risk unless you have seen a lot of all~ins called ~ in which case go all~in ~ or if not going all~in arouses suspicion in possible callers. As it happened you got called by a poor player, with dross ~ which is what you want ~ who got lucky. But as you know he’s probably playing any old rubbish and coupled with the pot size/what you have left, there’s no way you are folding. It’s a horrid little game that rewards chancers!

Todd

If you are going to commit yourself to the hand then how about calling the $15 raise and then check/raising the Turn (if it’s favourable). This may force an aggressive player to get all in with you holding A-10, JJ, etc. who may have folded to your flop re-raise? Too risky? I may sound naive here but I feel that if you play strong on the flop a lot who follow you may have you beat, where as if you wait until the Turn a number of weaker hands may come along. What do you think?

BB,

I think that is a very reasonable line. A nice variation of that is the weak lead. Make a bit of an undersized c-bet on the flop and check the turn. Really good against agressive players. I had a very agressive player on my left last night that I was looking for that situation exactly. Sadly, never got the right hand to trap him. I let him bluff me out of a couple of small pots for nothing I guess. Arrg.

In this case, it may be a very good choice. Again, I think QQ is right on the borderline for that. With AA especially or KK, I think you make that move a lot. With JJ, I think you don’t make that move much at all. My preference is to re-raise the flop in this situation. If you want to trap, rock on! An added benefit of that is that it really keeps people on your left off your back.

So how did the actual hand resolve itself?

Todd

Sorry, it wasn’t an actual hand but a hypothetical one (I dream these up all day!)but similar ones have troubled me in the past.
Another question: when I play I tend to buy in for 20BB’s and attempt to work my way up. This way I get to play short stacked, medium and if all goes well large stacked. I quite like doing this as you get to play differing stack strategies and if I do find myself large stacked I find it a little easier to play as I’m playing with my winnings. Is this a reasonable way to play or am I missing something here? Any thoughts?

Hi,
This is a repost of a question I posted on 2P2; I hope you don’t mind.

After taking 5th for $450 in a local casino tounament, I decided to “reinvest” in the 1-3 NLH game at the same venue. The game had some peculularities, namely, it tended to play much bigger after the flop. This hand cost me a big hunk of my earnings and illustrates what I mean. (PS. NOT a bad beat story - an inquery on how to play in such games and, of course, if I played correctly under the circumstances.

My stack ~$235, others same +- $100, no one really deep.
Late middle w/ ATos, I raise 2 limpers to $15.
Called in 4 places. (This, BTW, was somewhat typical).

So, at this point, it seems to me the hand is playing as if the BB were $15 with a bunch of limpers and I am definately short-stacked for that game, right?

Pot = $75; Flop is T72 with 2H.
SB bets $15, called by 2 players to me. I raise to $50 with TPTK, ~half the pot, and am called by only RHO who has me covered.

This is a table that love to draw and I have 80% confidence my opponent is on a heart draw.
Turn is off-suit rag, checked to me and I push in for ~$160.
Called K2 of H. K hits the river.

I checked out of the game at this point. It seems to me that this game requires a deeper stack than what 1-3 would imply. Should I be playing with a larger stack or a shorter stack?Would this game be characterized as Loose-Passive? What’s the best strategy here? I’m not sure my bankroll ($3000) can withstand the variance in this game.

BB,

I tend to buy in for 100BB. While I am pretty good on the short stack in tournaments, I’m not so good in cash games. The relative stacks are more skewed (or at least you can really have only 1 or 2 large stacks) in cash games and you aren’t working from an unreplentishable set of chips. You can be much more threatening in tournaments. I haven’t made good adjustments there and tend to bleed off chips needlessly.

Here is another hypothetical that I tend to struggle with around building a pot with a medium strength hand. Give yourself AQo on the button. It folds to you. You raise 3x or 4x, whatever is your standard. SB calls. BB folds. Flop comes Axx. SB leads for 5BB. You raise 15BB to 20BB. He calls. Now there are around 50BB in the pot and you have a pretty good, but not all that great hand and position. Turn is blank. SB checks to you.

In this situation, I would give the SB credit for raising AA or KK preflop, but could have smooth called with anyhting else. Lets make the board AT74. Not that connected, rainbow on the flop. After he calls my raise, I’m putting the SB on something like {AK, AQ, AJ, AT, A7, T7, TT, 77, QQ} as definitely in the range, {A9, A8} as often in the range, {A6, A5, 98, KT, QT, JT} as occasionally in the range (like if I’ve been caught bluffing recently), but a lot less likely.

So the question is, at what stack sizes am I betting and at what stack sizes am I checking behind to control the pot which is getting a little out of hand? 75BB just move in, easy. If he call, sometimes you win, a little more often you lose. 100-120BB, I think I should always check behind, as I wuold be priced into a bigger pot than I want to play if he shoves. Now, with 200BB if I bet there is almost nothing that I beat if he moves in. Am I betting here again? I don’t know.

Thoughts?

Todd

My thinking may be a little askew on this one because I’ve never truly understood how to play one pair hands and how big a pot you should be looking to build but I(maybe wrongly) tend to err on the side of caution.
The key words for me here are ‘medium strength hand’. If I believe my hand to be medium strength I like to play for a medium sized pot and your position may allow you to do that. On top of this I don’t like losing players who are holding weaker kickers with just 3 outs. If he is holding,eg, AJ I want another bet from him; if he’s got me beat I definately don’t want the hand to get out of control. You said that the pot had got a little out of hand but that happened through your raise and his call. My question is why raise? When he calls you aren’t too sure where you stand so why not call the flop and see what happens on the turn? Against someone who would call that raise with A9, etc, then obviously you are going to pop him but against the unknown I prefer a call. When someone bets into me, after I raise, when an obvious card comes on the flop that could have hit me, I tend to tread a little more carefully, especially if it’s a half pot sized bet that just looks as if it’s begging to be raised.
Like I said I may be too cautious and/or trappy in these situations but that’s the way I tend to play. If I had have raised the flop and he called I would have definately checked behind on the Turn if I had a reasonable amount of money left.

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