Q&A #89: Is It A Dead Hand?

A protocol I got from the 2+2 forums that I really like for situations like #2: have a tip chip covering your cards. At the end of the hand, if you’ve won it uncontested, trade the cards, chip and all, for the pot. This should not be able to be confused with mucking in the event someone else has a live hand.

What is the biggest limit pot you ever saw Ed? I won a $140 pot at 2/4 limit one time!

I hate when players conceal their cards with hands or chips. That’s a pet peeve of mine, even if they’re not doing it as an angle shoot. I play in home games with people that regularly conceal their cards under their hands, which makes it difficult to see who’s in the pot.

I don’t believe that if all the players muck their cards at showdown the order of mucking matters. I believe I’ve heard the pot is split in that case. I checked Robert’s Rules and he doesn’t seem to cover that. But editor Bob Ciaffone would be the person to ask a question like that, and he’s always replied to my emails.

>”The all-in player was actually hiding his cards, hoping I’d throw my hand away. Then the dealer finally said, “Showdown for the main pot,” and I turned over my hand. The card-hider angrily threw his cards into the muck.”

If I live to be 100 I’ll still never understand some people. No doubt he was angry at the dealer for exposing his little subterfuge, but the dealer was just acting according to the rules.

It would give me no satisfaction at all to win a pot like that. Resorting to cheating is just an admission that the other players are better than you. I guess cheaters must have really low self-esteem; that’s the only thing that explains it.

>”The all-in player was actually hiding his cards, hoping I’d throw my hand away. Then the dealer finally said, “Showdown for the main pot,” and I turned over my hand. The card-hider angrily threw his cards into the muck.”

Wow. Those angleshooting idiots leave me speechless (or at least speechless considering the limited words I am probably allowed to use on this forum).

Another trap for the unwary: while verbal is binding, wait for the other player to demonstrably put his chips in the pot before exposing your hand.

I once played an 5-10 PL Omaha pot with 4 players to the flop. I flopped top set (AJJT on a J73 board, 2 diamonds). 2 of the 4 players got all in on the flop, and only the famed John Bonetti and I had chips left. I was in the 10 seat, and he was in the 2 seat, so I could not see him well.

The pot was 2000 going into the turn. I had 700 and he had me covered. The turn is Ad putting a flush on the board. I checked and he checked behind. The river was Ax, giving me the nuts. I go all in.

Bonetti asks how much it is. He then counts out 700 and puts it in front of his stack. The table, however, had no betting line. He then says something that was inaudible to me, but the dealer turned to me and said “Call.”

At that point, I quickly and proudly turned my hand over. Bonetti saw my hand and then tried to weasel out of the call, saying he was only counting his chips and had not called. Typical “old guy” trick.

The floor was called, and the thankfully ruled in my favor. I was worried because this was my first time in the room, and Bonetti was a regular customer. It could easily have gone the other way had the dealer not confirmed that Bonetti said call.

The floor made Bonetti turn his hand over. He flopped a set of 7s and filled up on the river. So, it was pretty clear he was not folding for 700 more in that big a pot. As he had a relationship with the house, I think the house may have rebated him some or all of his 700 call in a side deal.

Interestingly, Player 3 flopped a set of 3s (set over set over set!), and Player 4 flopped a flush draw and inside wrap, hitting his flush on the turn. While I was leading on the flop, I had only 1 out to improve on the turn, and 3 outs to suck out on the river.

Moral of the story: protect your hand.

Selfmade wrote:

“I hate when players conceal their cards with hands or chips. That’s a pet peeve of mine, even if they’re not doing it as an angle shoot. I play in home games with people that regularly conceal their cards under their hands, which makes it difficult to see who’s in the pot.”

ABSOULTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH PROTECTING YOUR CARDS BY HOLDING THEM IN YOUR HAND. RAY ZEE, IN FACT, RECOMMENDS IT. IF YOU PLAY A POT, IT’S YOUR JOB TO KNOW WHO IS IN THE POT.

“I don’t believe that if all the players muck their cards at showdown the order of mucking matters. I believe I’ve heard the pot is split in that case.”

ALL PLAYERS MUCK BEFORE THE POT IS PUSHED? NEVER SEEN IT. IF ALL PLAYERS BUT ONE MUCK, THE PLAYER WITH THE LIVE HAND WINS. AND HE DOES NOT HAVE TO SHOW SINCE THERE IS NO SHOWDOWN. HE MUCKS LAST. IN THAT SENSE, ORDER OF MUCKING MATTERS.

…snip…
ABSOULTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH PROTECTING YOUR CARDS BY HOLDING THEM IN YOUR HAND. RAY ZEE, IN FACT, RECOMMENDS IT. IF YOU PLAY A POT, IT’S YOUR JOB TO KNOW WHO IS IN THE POT.
…snip…

There’s a difference between protecting your hand and shooting an angle. As the story was told, sounds like an angle. You are right, though, it’s your responsibility to know who is in the pot.

Showdown is “When all the betting’s done, if more than one player is still in the pot, showdown is the process of figuring out who wins.” (SeriousPoker.com dictionary) Whether people muck or not, at that point it’s still a showdown.

And you have to show your cards to claim a pot at showdown: “To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table whether they were used in the final hand played or not.” (Robert’s Rules, Section3/The Showdown/1)

I recall a headsup hand where a bluffer bet at showdown, get called, instamucked, and the caller mucked their cards and reached for the pot. Asked about that case, Bob Ciaffone (Robert’s Rules editor) said: “THE RULE IS TO MAKE THE PERSON SHOW THEIR CARDS, BUT YOU SHOULD NEVER DEPRIVE THE RIGHTFUL OWNER OF THE POT FROM THEIR MONEY IN THIS TYPE OF SITUATION. YOU SHOW HER HAND IF POSSIBLE, BUT YOU DO NOT STIFF HER.”

I strongly disagree with you Ed. The instant that player C says “take it” then his hand is dead. I would never rule to accomodate an angle-shooter who tried to claim the sidepot.

What if at showdown a guy turns AA one card at a time instead of both at same time to basically make you think you won? DO both cards count or only the first one…slow turning is a breech of etiquette but is the second card dead so that my QQ would win ?

I called all-in. My opponent before taking the bet opens his card as if to muck. Then the opponent stalls 3 minutes before the dealer calls 60sec. Trying to rouse a tell from me with his cards. Then decides to take the bet and wins the hand. This was at a small game and we are looking for an experienced answer. Did my opponent muck his hands by opening them to the table (not dropping them, holding them) before betting? I believe, after all action has happened, it is OK to do that, not before.

There should be a universal rule for poker that states that if you are in a showdown you MUST show all of your cards period. This would help prevent collusion and make declaring the winner easier. It goes along with the saying, “you have to pay em to see em”. It would keep poker more honest. Has anybody ever seen the movie “Lucky You”? Here is a great example of chip dumping/collusion at the end by the son to the dad. If the rules of poker was how I envision them, this could not happen.