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Q&A #79: But Doyle Brunson Says…

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Today I will both answer a question and rant a bit about a related pet peeve. Excited? I know I am. First, the question from Jarno Virtanen,

On a different forum, I got into an argument about the correct preflop play with AA/KK and AKo. I just got a free copy of super system/2 and I read Harman’s limit chapter. Now, I guess I’m in no position to critisize Harman, but I was a bit confused at times. She was constantly emphasizing preflop isolation, which is an important concept as such.

But she then went on to claim that you should not raise with pocket aces preflop if there are a lot of players in a raised pot already, because you can’t isolate and get the pot heads-up anymore. I mean, WTF? If UTG raises, UTG+1 reraises and 6 people cold-call in between, then I’m capping with aces 100% of the time even though there’s no way in hell anyone’s going to fold anymore. It’s a pure value raise at that point.

The other example was of a middle position raiser and two cold callers in between with you holding AKo in the big blind. Harman said that you should not raise here, because, again, you can’t get heads-up and you’re out of position. Again, I would 3-bet here nearly 100% of the time and lead out on most flops. (Hopefully getting the original preflop raiser to raise and shut out the rest of the field or to just get value in with a lucky flop. AKo particularly is a hand that has worst possible implied odds so it’s better to get money in when you’re favorite.

(Of course, this assumes that this isn’t some super-tight expert table, though the fact the there are two cold-callers in between suggests that it really isn’t. And with pocket aces or kings you’d still raise whatever the previous action.)

So, do you agree with the idea to get the most money in preflop with AA/KK, AK even though you can’t isolate to get the pot heads-up or even 3-way?

Jarno, for practical purposes, I think you’ve got the right idea. If you’re in a multiway pot with AA or KK, you should raise, reraise, and cap the overwhelming majority of the time. You aren’t trying to isolate anyone or get people to fold. You have a pot equity edge, and you make the most of it by getting more in the pot.

Ace-king is a little slipperier, as the pot equity edge with the hand isn’t as large. Nevertheless, in the example you provided – a raise and two calls to the big blind – I would similarly 3-bet with AK the large majority of the time. If it’s suited, I reraise 100% of the time.

I haven’t read Harman’s section in a while, so I can’t comment on what she said, but that’s how I would play those hands. Now for the semi-related rant.

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6 Responses to “Q&A #79: But Doyle Brunson Says…”

brasilstu
@ Sun Jul 08, 2007 07:25:36 AM
1

I watched a dvd of a poker conference and at the end it had Doyle, Harman, and one other guy answering questions from the audience.

They were being asked the dumbest questions imagineable but each time the pros were saying ‘it depends’ and telling the fish what to think about rather than offering soundbites.

So I think it’s the TV’s fault, not the pros. Having said that I can think of one player (he’s won 11 bracelets) who’s made quite a nice living from giving soundbite poker advice.

uDevil
@ Sun Jul 08, 2007 02:53:49 PM
2

Context is something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately. Whether it’s books, videos, or posts on poker forums, sufficient context is never provided. Even with the very best advice, it’s up to the audience to supply the last bit of context. Without that, the advice may be worse than worthless.

Forum posts are the worst in terms of context. Replies to questions are frequently given by players playing different stakes, on different sites, with different styles, and without regard to whether they are playing online or live, or in short-handed or full games.

I’m realizing that making adjustments to whatever advice I get is critical. Figuring out what adjustments need to be made and how big they should be is painful, but I’m finding I can’t be successful otherwise.

Jarno Virtanen
@ Mon Jul 09, 2007 03:31:00 AM
3

Hope this doesn’t sound too much like a continuation-name-dropping, but I thought this quote from the Stoxtrader/Zobags book sounded relevant to the original question:

Three-betting also allows me to further narrow my opponents’ ranges because I get to see whether or not they four-bet. Since neither of them does, AA, KK, QQ, and AK are ruled out virtually 100 percent of the time, as well as probably JJ, and maybe TT. While a player sometimes may not four-bet those hands against only one opponent for deception purposes, it is extremely rare (and a big mistake) not to four-bet pref-flop with these hands when three or more players are in.

Ed Miller
@ Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:54:58 PM
4

My rant was merely prompted by your question, not in reaction to it. Think of it like free association. :)

BTR
@ Mon Jul 09, 2007 09:30:37 PM
5

I always love the interviews with pros that ask “What’s your favorite starting hand in hold’em”. You always get answers like 76s or T8s or something like that. I believe it was Chip Reese that gave the most honest answer when he said #1 = AA, #2 = KK, #3 = QQ ….

jamleeco
@ Mon Jul 16, 2007 06:50:29 PM
6

Yes, and even if it’s completely honest and selfless, still beware grabbing snippets here and there.

I was associated with a well-known, highly successful wrestling coach for a number of years. He would have camps that were attended by wrestlers from all around, several that would be competing agaist his own atheletes.(camp was practically mandatory for his wretlers)

He showed a lot. All honest and good stuff that made his guys not only successful in H.S. but helped several of them attain educations and successes years later.

I asked him ” What are you doing ? That is going to come back to haunt you.” He replied no it wouldn’t. The athelete won’t know how to use it properly without practice and practice. And if he does show it to his coach and they practice it everyday, if it doens’t fit into the coach’s overall philosohy about wrestling, what’s important, how important, how to incorporate it with the other umpteen moves and series of set-ups and moves, it’s not going to make a difference. And of course, if it did, he felt confident enough to go beyond that next time and still be ahead of the competition.

That’s the way I feel about Big-name advice and myself. Even if something will eventually work for me in my games, it’s not now and I’m not good enough yet to know how to take an isolated idea and incorporate it into what I’m trying to accomplish as a player.

The only big-name books I own are Dan Harrington , and thanks to QE, Ed. =)

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