Q&A #72: Going Broke with One Pair, AKA Reclaim Your No-Limit Sanity

I think that “don’t go broke with one pair” applies more when your opponents are no longer willing to go broke with Ace high. Or event TPGK. If you have opponents like that, hands that would be mediocre in other circumstances become much stronger.

Ikke blakk deg med bare et par på hånda…

Notedpokerauthority har en artikkel i dag om å blakke seg i no-limit holdem når man bare har et par. De skriver om alt fra det psykologiske rundt dette, til at det er en helt vanlig nybegynner feil eller feil som dårlige spillere gjør igjen og igje…

i thought this article was going to be on how to not get felted with overpairs, like when a agressive player check raises the flop and he could have a set or a draw (or anything in between some of the time)

Hi!
I just read something great
http://www.parttimepoker.com/poker-strategy-articles/052007/little-blue-article.html
and I think there’s a little bit of similar themes in it, like adjusting your play and… well, also going broke with one pair.

I don’t want to be picky and all but really he had two pair, 6’s on the board and Q’s in the hole… I do get what you’re saying though

I had just watched this hand when I read your bit on min raises. Proves your point that it’s not just for bad players.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SyZdGTVAalE

And buddy list that guy! What did he think AJ was beating there!?

To me there are two types of bad players (well there are many but let’s talk about these two) frequenting the low-to-mid stakes games. There are the loose-loose ones (loose pre-flop and loose post flop) that provide action with any two cards, who will quickly go broke but also call down many of your bluffing attempts. Then there are the loose-weak ones, who might see a lot of flops but then refuse to get their money in on later streets without the stone cold nuts against whom many of us will win the small ones and lose the big ones.

Add to the mix many of us frequenting formus like this one. We are players trying to learn the game, playing actively, attacking, analysing, testing new plays and moves, many of which we have picked up from studying the famous players at the nose-bleed levels. Thing is this makes us a little to good for our own good, given the opposition at the level we’re playing at.

I am not saying that we all should move up to a level where they “respect our raises” etc, etc. All I am sayting is that as thinking players we simply need to learn to stay patient and use what works against the opposition on whatever level we are playing at, otherwise we will forever use the “right moves” against the “wrong players”, donating more than we have to to both categories of players described above.

As thinking players we need to learn to think full circle, past our egos and frustrations, and realize that as such (thinking players) sometimes we are also out thinking ourselves.

Studying nose-bleed play you sometimes see the money going in with nothing but king-high on the turn or mid pair on the river, neither of which are recommended plays for the micro or small stakes given the opponent types illustrated above.

That said, nothing wrong with getting it all in with QQ given the flop and opposition in this example.

Thanks for reading

…snip…
And buddy list that guy! What did he think AJ was beating there!?
…snip…

He thought his A was live and good enough. An A, woo hoo!

It’s funny, there was a thread on the micro-NL board over at 2+2 earlier this week. A guy had flopped the nut straight playing .05/.10 NL. There was some betting on the flop and he got check raised all-in on the turn when a flush card came. He laid it down for about $5.00 into an $8.00 pot even though he had the nut straight and a J high redraw to the flush and everyone was congratulating him on his laydown.

Good grief. Know your competition. At .05/.10 that kind of action may mean flush, but really, laying down that hand and getting an overlay to the typical knucklehead playing .05/.10 just isn’t recognizing who you are playing against.

Hello Ed,

I have a quite a difficult time playing out of position with good hands but not greats hand. Often hands like AJ/AQ ,pocket 9’s & 10’s and even jacks can be difficult to play against just 1 good loose aggressive player at the table.

Even when many players have limped in I feel pressurized just to call, especially hands such as AQ suited and AK. I am worried that if I raise 7x the big blind and 5 people call after me, the good loose aggressive player will take the initative to reraise a big amount causing an even bigger trouble. Now I now they could be doing this with any 2 cards, but sometimes players like this will be sandbagging a big hand.
Also even if a few people call, how do I best play the flop. Most of the time I will miss the flop, just have A high, created a large pot and will be out of position against 1 or more opponenets. Exactly what I do not want! I know the easy answer is just to call which is what I have been doing but I feel I am missing an opportunity with a good hand. Please help!!

So what I am rally asking is
what is the best procedure to take when you are dealt these hands in the blind, and you have a lot of limpers, and one of those limpers is a good loose aggressive player.
and what is the best step to take against an loose aggressive player raising you in late position with these good but not great hands.

Sorry about spelling mistakes. I will check what I write next time:)

Also, just to say great website and thanks for all the advice!

Craig,
Here’s a slightly different answer to your dilemma. In situations like the one you mentioned, I sometimes need to ask myself, “What is my long-term goal with my playing poker?”
Well, one of my long-term goals is to build a bank roll large enough and become good enough to play at a table where situations like this one is not very likely to happen.
So then I ask myself, “How am I supposed to work towards that goal during this current session?”
By getting my money into the middle only during situations I feel I can remain in control so not to create unnecessary volatility to my roll.
“Can I achieve that in this hand?”
No
“When do I get a new chance to repeat this process to work towards my goal?”
In less than 2 minutes
“So what can I do about it?”
Fold, because it’s not that big a leak [see leak = price * frequency from yesterday] even though it happens to be AQ-off, go fill up my coffee, and wait for the next hand to be in control over…

(Just a thought that I use maybe twice per evening)

Optisizer,

Thanks for your comments.

This is the exact same thought process I had but is this the correct one?

You say these situations does not occur frequently enough to be a big leak. I slightly disagree with this. The situation I mentioned frequently occurs a lot in low stakes no limit holdem, where you get one good LA player with calling stations. I must say I am not costing myself that much by limping or folding, though I do wonder how much I am costing myself by not getting any potential extra winnings if I played the hand differently.

In essence I feel that though this is not a major leak. Poker is about taking full advantage of each opportunity and I keep questioning myself if I am taking the full advantage here.

Craig

Two things. First, the good LAG. You must not forget the “loose” part of LAG. Yeah, he might have been sandbagging a monster, but you need to ask yourself, how often does he actually have the monster? You just don’t get dealt that many. And you know that he is sometimes putting the big raise in to take you off your hand. So fight back. If what you’re holding beats the range that he is raising with, reraise fearlessly. Fight fire with fire. He’ll stop pushing you round once you’ve stacked his shiat a couple of times. You’re going to lose some, of course, but you’re going to win more. Second, don’t build big pots with ace high! Chasing your own dead money is a good way to go bust. Once you’ve raised and been called, your money belongs to the pot, not you. You don’t need to try to win it back. If you have more than five callers, you will not win every hand. But you will win more than one in six. In general, against really loose players, I wouldn’t c-bet when I whiff with AK/AQ. Just give it up and move on. Build big pots when you have a big hand. Frankly, if I’m getting a ton of callers, I’ll limp AQ and maybe even AK. You might be best off doing that if the LAG is already in the hand, particularly if you have position on him and he’s going to have to bet into you postflop.

Here’s a hand that I played that I think might also demonstrate the issue. Now, I’m a complete no-limit newbie, a beginning limit-player who wants to get feet wet in no-limit too. And I’m not claiming that I played this hand well. It’s just feels like a textbook situation of a limit player going to get stacked in no-limit.

Also, there’s perhaps not enough information to work on. My (superficial) read on the Button was that he played very loosely preflop and really aggressively postflop, and in big pots. I hadn’t played in too many pots, probably none after the flop, in couple of orbits.

Seat 3: UTG ($10 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero ($15.30 in chips)
Seat 6: CO ($24.05 in chips)
Seat 9: Button ($57.60 in chips)

Poker Room skin
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.15
7 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is UTG+1 with As Qc

UTG (poster) checks, Hero raises to $0.6, MP1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls.

A standard “trouble” situation: being out of position with a TPTK type of hand and getting a lot of callers.

Flop: Qd 6c 5s ($2.65, 4 players)

UTG checks, Hero bets $2, CO folds, Button calls, UTG folds.

So we get the TPTK. Not particularly draw heavy board, but 78 or (less likely) 43 or even 74 type of hands have a strong draw. (In hindsight, I don’t think betting out here is the correct play, with so many players behind.) So, one caller. Absolutely no idea what the villain could have.

Turn: 8h ($6.65, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $5, Hero calls.

Not particularly likely to complete straight draws, but that’s a possibility too. Now, I checked and, as I would have guessed, button makes a significant bet. Now, I decided, on a whim, basically, that the villain was just outright bluffing on the pot, or possibly semibluffing with a straight draw. If the villain is just bluffing, there’s no reason to raise here, because he’s just going to fold his bluffs and push with the nuts.

Isn’t this just the classic getting stacked with TPTK hand, then?

River: 3h ($16.65, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $10, Hero calls all-in $7.7.
Uncalled bets: $2.3 returned to Button.

Since I decided that the villain was on a bluff, I’m definitely going to call here. It’s laying pretty good odds. Also, while 3h isn’t the best river card here, it’s also not the most dangerous.

Results:
Final pot: $32.05

Button shows KD 7H
Hero shows AS QC

Well, apparently villain’s turn was technically a semibluff, but his calling on the flop with basically air suggests that it was a case of “floating”, that is, getting a TPTK to fold to check-call/bet line.

It’s easy to be wise in hindsight, but I’m not posting this as an example of a good play, but as an example of a hand that you’d most likely just fold on the turn, perhaps rightly so, but ended playing and winning.