Q&A #49: No Limit Hold ‘em Structures

Ed,

Nice site; I’ve been lurking and this is the first post for me here.

Keep in mind the 2/3 blind $100 fixed buy game is not only popular at the Commerce, you’ll find the same game structure at just about all the Los Angeles county cardrooms. In fact Hawaiian Gardens was the first club to successfully use this structure well before the poker boom.

One reason the blinds have to be so high relative to the fixed or narrow spread buyin is because of the “drop everything on the flop” system used in California (and enforced especially strictly in LA County). This requirement tends to prevent a small blind, high (or unrestricted) buyin game from working well. A high buyin relative to small blinds tends to attract stronger players (e.g., I played the 1-3 unrestricted game at the Wynn and experienced seven straight hands with no flop – I’ve never seen anything like this in LA). Anyway with small blinds and the ability to start with a deep stack the pot size on the flop would often be too small to support the sick drop on flop. Although this occasionally happens under the current structure it doesn’t occur too often since $100 bills flow out of player’s wallets like water in a monsoon rain these days. Even the $20 buyin game with 1-1 blinds at Hawaiian Gardens (located conveniently next to the bar) often features games with deep stacks after a while. Yeah, three or four buyins come off the table in drop per hour, but I’ve goofed around in games were each hand averaged a rebuy or two!

Typically though I tend to play the 5/10 $400 or $500 fixed buy games (along with the 3-5 $200 fixed buy game). So long as you have time to play a decent length session you often do end up in deep stack games with a deep stack. The beauty is that when you end up with the deep stack, you’re often the only one who plays the deep stack fairly well [b]and no deep stack shark can take a seat and match your stack.[/b] IOW, if I play a deep stack in an unrestricted buyin game my B- deep stack game (I’m probably being overly generous rating my play) is usually up against C+ to A- deep stack players; in the fixed buy game my B- game is usually up against D- to B deep stack players.

Naturally it’s best for me to work at becoming a stronger deep stack player, but if you want to start deep in LA you are playing a much bigger game and need a much bigger bankroll. I can’t do that.

As an aside, although the Commerce (and now the Bike) have increased their drop by taking an extra buck on the river I see a faint silver lining. That is if this is legal (taking a percentage drop is clearly illegal in California) perhaps a forward thinking California card club can take their drop in more refined pieces, e.g. a $5 drop could be taken $2 on the flop, $2 on the turn, and $1 on the river. I’d prefer the drop to be taken on called action on each street, but sometimes you need to walk before you can run.

Regards,

Rick Nebiolo

PS I no longer work at the Bike
or any other card club.

Gee, I wanted to bold “and no deep stack shark can take a seat and match your stack.” but I used the wrong syntax and I can’t find a way to preview or edit!

~ Rick

I live in the SF Bay Area and as far as I know Lucky Chances still has the spread limit games until you get to the $1000 buyin NL big game. I have not been there since they went to the spread (max bet is $200). The Bay 101 has two spread limit games – $5 blind and $10 blind (AJs does not spread NL).

I used to play at San Pablo Casino and they still have the $100 max buyin I believe (I have not been there in awhile).

The only real game that I know well is at the California Grand – That is a $200 max and a 3,2,2 blind as I remember. I played that game for a year in 2005. I think it is the same. I play limit there now.

The reason is that, as Ed says, I do not like the structure. Lucky Chances used to have a $500 minimum buyin NL game that was 5, 10 and 20 to open in 2005. That was a good game. Only problem was the $1000-$5000 guys would play waiting for a game. They’re tough.

I don’t like the spread games (max bet $200) and I don’t like the $100/$200 buyin so I play limit.

Cache Creek has a nice $500 NL game that has a 5-10 I think but that is 94 miles one way.

Palace in Hayward has a minimum $100 NL sometimes the buyins are $1000-$3000. I would take a bodyguard. I don’t remember the blinds but the stacks are deep.

So, I play limit.

I would like to see a $500 NL with a blind $5-$10 and $20 to open in the Bay Area. Then I would consider playing NL again.

Garden City in San Jose recently changed the structure of their low-limit spread limit game and now I won’t play it. It was bad before, and it’s AWFUL now.

The old structure was $100 max buy-in, $3 BB & $1 BB, and a $4 drop at the flop. If there was no flop (i.e. a raise and all fold), then the drop was $1.

The new structure is $100 max buy-in, $3 BB, $2 SB, & $1 on the button. The drop on the flop is now $5. Also, they changed the ‘no flop, no drop’ rule – if there is any action pre-flop, then the entire $5 rake is dropped. (i.e. a raise and all fold gets the house $5 and you $1!).

This game was already a push-fest, since everyone was so short (33xBB stacks), but now it’s even worse. Cost per orbit went up 50%, and rake is up 25% (really more since they are now dropping $5 sometimes when there is no flop). There’s really no way to play tight/patient in this game, you get eaten by the blinds.

The spread limit game at Lucky Chances near San Francisco is better, but that’s an hour’s drive away, so I can’t get up there as often. That game is $200 max buy-in, $2 BB, $1 SB, $1 on button, and a $4 bring in to see the flop. The drop is $4 rake + $1 bad beat jackpot, so $5 per hand. If there is no flop, they take $1 rake and $1 bad beat. The game is really a $4-$200 spread limit game, with 50xBB stacks.

Thanks for the update Ken, I don’t play them so I was not sure as to the structure – boy, Garden City’s game sure does suck. As I said, I do not like the spread limit games. I would much rather play a pot limit game of which I have not seen in the bay area. All the home games in the 60′s and 70′s were pot limit table stakes.

Bay Area card rooms are a business and they do not want their customers to go broke and quit playing. That is why cal grand will not spread a bigger NL game than $200. Online and Las Vegas do not have this problem.

Alamedamike: It sounds like you don’t like the 2-3-5 blinds, 10 to-go spread limit ($200 max bet) structure at Lucky Chances. Min buy-in is $200 and I believe there is no cap on buy-in. I’ve played the game a few times and it seems decent (i.e., there are enough soft spots to make it profitable). The spread limit doesn’t allow for the big “all-in” bluff, but since that is not my forte, I don’t find that to be a problem. I am curious why you do not like this structure. Care to share your reason(s)?

My problem that a $200 bet is not going to protect your hand against draws. In NL you can bet enough, assuming you have the stack, to deter draws.

It could be that I do not know how to play a spread limit game.

Im a regular at commerce NL100 2/3 blinds, and the drop is 1 dollar if no flop, 3 dollars if flop + 1 if turn, no drop on river.
There is lots of Chop pots Preflop when it gets folded to the Sb.
Another thing is that once you lose your 1st restricted buyin, you have an option to buyin for 150$, or 50% more than the restricted buyin. So you can start with 50BB. And the rebuys flows like once per orbit. Its not hard at all to see stacks of 300 to 700 in NL100. So yes, you can play deep stack at NL100 if you play long enough, and thats when it gets really profitable. This weekend alone I played 2 sessions of 10 hours approximately netting over 11 buyins per session, totaling 22 buyins.
I honestly think a good student of the game can make 6 to 12k dollars on NL100 alone. (heck, im doing over 8k/month) Money is flowing so well at NL100 that I dont even have plans to try NL200 at commerce anytime soon.

Rick N, you put “only” in the wrong place. It should come after “popular.”