Q&A #22: Out of Position with a Tough River Decision

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Paul asks,

love the new site and that you have rss going. here’s a hand I played that I thought was a tough decision, interested to get your thoughts:

5/10 NL online, 1k effective stacks. not much info on villian, he has called a lot on early streets and frequently bet big ...

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10 Responses to “Q&A #22: Out of Position with a Tough River Decision”

John
@ Thu Nov 30, 2006 06:18:55 AM
1

Nice post. So I take it from your post that your line here (assuming that you play this hand preflop), would be a half pot bet on the flop, followed by check-call or check fold to the river? That’s certainly my line - if I play A7s OOP it is purely for the chance of a flush and not for top pair value.

Looking forward to your book - there seem to be a lack of non-tournament NL books. I assume that the new book will be more paractical and less theoretical than NLHE Theory and Practice?

paul
@ Thu Nov 30, 2006 09:11:46 AM
2

thanks for the response. couple of questions:

“Your starting hand, A7s, is marginal”

preflop I always open here from the CO w/A7s, usually it buys the button and I either win the blinds or get HU in position. what’s the minimum suited ace you open with in CO? does it change for a 6max vs full game?

Wil
@ Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:46:20 AM
3

I’m VERY new to Hold’Em and Poker in general and I have the same background vein as Ed. I’ve purchased all the top (around 12 or so) poker and hold’em books and am digging in. However, there always seem to be terms missing in all of the glossaries. In this article, for example, “effective stacks”, “float” (which you defined above), “BIG ace?”, et cetera. All of these terms keep cropping up in my books with no mention of where to look them up. I understand that these authors have been playing for so long that these terms are normal language for them but for true beginners, we have no clue.

I can only deduce from the context of the article that “villian” and “hero” are the person you are playing against and you respectively. Is that always the case? Can’t there be “villians” if you’re in it with more than one villian?

My point is that there seems to be a lot of implied or assumed terminology that I have been unable to locate definitions for in any of my books. Does your “Hold’Em for Beginners” cover these terms?

Thank you,

- Wil

Ed Miller
@ Thu Nov 30, 2006 01:26:03 PM
4

Paul:

In general, be more inclined to open with A7s (or other marginal hands) if there is a soft, predictable player on the button. Your opponent who likes to stick around in hands and make big moves on late streets… well, that’s a bad player to have on the button. There’s really no such thing as a “default” play in the cutoff. The playing tendencies of the button affects the decision too much.

For instance, you said you usually either buy the button or win the blinds. Do you think that “usually” statement was true in this case? How often are you picking up the blinds and/or playing in position in this scenario?

I’m not saying one way or the other… only you can know how your opponents play. But I am saying that how you should play A7s in that circumstance definitely depends on how your opponents play… and if you “always” play it the way you did, I think that’s a problem.

I hate to be a tease, but I think the book will answer your question in much greater depth.

Ed Miller
@ Thu Nov 30, 2006 01:37:56 PM
5

Wil:

You’re right. There’s a LOT of jargon that poker players throw around. In fact, there’s little subsets of jargon. You’ll hear one term in an LA cardroom, a different one in a Vegas cardroom, and a different one still in Atlantic City. And on the internet… there’s a whole ‘net language all of its own.

Not only that, but new words pop up constantly. For instance, “float” is a relatively new term. I first started hearing it on the internet about three or four years ago. So is “donkey.” When I started playing, the bad players were “fish.” Now they’re “donkeys.” And “donkey” gave rise to calling plays “donk” plays. And then “donk” lost the “bad” meaning a little bit, and started meaning a sort of “odd.” A “donk bet” isn’t a bad bet… it’s an out of position bet when you check-called the previous round. Like if you check and call the flop, but then bet the turn, that’s a “donk bet.” Or, more simply, you “donked” the turn.

Anyway, I try to define the terms I use in books (at least define them for my target audience… I’ll define “nuts” in a beginner book, but not an intermediate one). But on my blog, I’m not so careful. So if there’s a term you don’t know, please just ask. They change constantly, and it’s hard to stay current with the fashion. :)

“Effective stacks” are defined in my book NLHTAP (No Limit Hold ‘em: Theory and Practice). No limit decisions depend strongly on the stack sizes. If someone says, “Effective stacks are 1k,” they mean, “everyone had about $1,000 for the hand… ignore any little differences.”

A “big ace” is an ace with a high kicker. Ace-king or ace-queen primarily. In context, it could also mean ace-jack or ace-ten. For instance, if you have A7 and flop a pair of aces, you’re worried about a “big ace” because someone with that hand has you beaten. In that context, you basically mean anyone with a better kicker than yours when you say “big ace,” but you particularly still mean ace-king or ace-queen.

Likewise, a “little ace” is an ace with a small kicker.

“Villain” and “hero” is internet shorthand when relaying hands. “Hero” is the person whose perspective the hand is relayed from. You know hero’s cards and have to decide what hero’s actions should be.

Villain is anyone else. Often there’s just one, but I guess you could say “villain 1″ and “villain 2.”

Anyway, thanks for stopping by, Wil, and feel free to ask about any other terms you don’t recognize.

It would be nice to have an up-to-date glossary of poker terms, but I wouldn’t want to have to maintain it… the terms change so fast.

paul
@ Thu Nov 30, 2006 03:53:21 PM
6

hey ed, thanks for your response.

“Do you think that “usually” statement was true in this case?”

I think it’s true here and in my opinion most mid stakes shortish games (this was 6max, which I neglected to mention) online. I am very surprised you saying it’s a marginal hand, I show a strong profit with all my suited aces from the CO over quite a few hands.

7

[...] When I got home this evening, I got one of those poker tips emails from Full Tilt and then came across an entry on Noted Poker Authority both emphazing the same idea: Play big pots with big hands, play small pots with small hands. This was major. I applied this new idea immediately and had a decent session tonight after dropping back down to $10 NL, which is where I should be anyway. [...]

Zach Malmgren
@ Fri Mar 23, 2007 06:03:41 PM
8

Ed,

I just stumbled on to your blog and started reading a post or two. I can tell right away that I will be stopping by more often. I just wanted to write a quick “kudos” before going home for the evening.

Ed Miller
@ Fri Mar 23, 2007 08:07:56 PM
9

Hi Zach,

Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. :)

James
@ Tue Sep 11, 2007 04:44:26 PM
10

I have been reading the blogs for just under a month.. I luv ‘em! Just your 7 principles of NL alone were enough to improve my game…. Keep it comming You da man

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