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Q&A #112: How To Get Away From “Big” Hands When You’re Beaten

Posted on Tue Sep 09, 2008 08:48:15 AM
Filed under Adjusting Your Play, Hand Reading, No Limit Hold 'em, Premium Articles, Q&A

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In no-limit, fairly frequently you have to lay down “big” hands like top pair, top kicker or a medium two pair because your opponent is representing something even bigger. Unfortunately, these are also sometimes hands you want to beat your opponent into the pot with. It can be hard to figure out if this is a, “I need to lay this top pair down,” situation, or if it’s a, “Woohoo, got my money in good,” situation. Today’s questioner, ouird, is struggling with these situations:

video #480.
Ed plays four tables of 25NL on Full Tilt. The video is aimed at microstakes players. Concepts presented include very aggressive blind stealing from the button and a river value min-raise. [Description of one of my Stoxpoker videos.]

you comment on not giving these [nitty] players any action, because you arent going to get much yourself. can you explain this to me a bit further. for some reason im not really “getting” the idea behind this statement. What do you mean by this?

i have a habit at this level of going broke on dry boards with hands like TPTK, 2 pair, (these are my major losers, and why im having trouble). ive recently started playing Pot Limit holdem on FullTilt, and having reasonable success, however still not the results i want to achieve. I also find myself really stat dependant, any ideas to get around this???

maybe you can give me some tips on how to reduce my losses with the above types of hands. i dont want to be calling a lot of pot/pot bets on the turn and river as that gets a bit expensive for the type of holding i have. but for whatever reason im unable to let them go. is there something i need to be thinking about when I get into these types of situations? i know its player dependant, but when is 2 pair good enough to play for stacks? I never like playing top pairs for stacks (though im guilty sometimes of doing it hehe).

Well, your question is a complex one. Top pair and medium-strength two pair hands are sometimes not so great to get your money in with, and sometimes you should beat your opponent into the pot with them. To tell what from what is all about hand reading, which is a mixture of knowing your opponent’s playing tendencies and reading the texture of the board/situation.

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5 Responses to “Q&A #112: How To Get Away From “Big” Hands When You’re Beaten”

Optisizer
@ Thu Sep 11, 2008 01:20:10 AM
1

Nice article as usual, but I feel you really don’t address the first paragraph of the question. This one:

“you comment on not giving these [nitty] players any action, because you arent going to get much yourself. can you explain this to me a bit further. for some reason im not really “getting” the idea behind this statement. What do you mean by this?”

Could you elaborate…

AKQJ10
@ Fri Sep 12, 2008 04:58:52 PM
2

Optisizer,

Not to speak for Ed, but I take that to mean that really tight-passive players are mostly going to bet or call with hands that are better than yours, i.e. you won’t “get action” from them when your cards are better.

Therefore, if you routinely call them when your cards are a little worse than their range, you’re going to get killed. You’d better not “give action”, i.e., you’d better learn to fold merely-good hands against that kind of player’s bet.

Regarding tough folds, or tough calls – I guess this might be a good place to ask for advice on this hand.

karbyn
@ Tue Nov 18, 2008 09:18:19 AM
3

I am rereading all of the “Hand Reading” posts …
Ed, you mention you misplay this on every street … I am not exactly sure how.

If you 3-bet, you generally define your hand too much against him. So you call, hoping to trap. He’ll also probably call with anything he raised with, but only 4-bet with KK+ ( but not always ). Depends on your raise size of course, but if you pop it to $25, do you think he calls with KJs?

You hit your Ace on the flush draw board. He bets. Should you have reraised all-in here? Or do you call, and push on a non-club turn? Either way is dicey, as the pot is large enough to justify taking down right there. However, if he has AcKc, he’s freerolling, anything else, he’s behind. KcQc or KcJc, maybe AcQC or 55, are my likely reads.

By the turn, he doesn’t have TT because the Tc in on the board, but maybe AA with the Ac. He slows down with any other pair. With his range here, why do you *know* he’s on a FD on the flop, and why should you fold on the turn. How many hands are you ahead of that are in his range, and how many are you behind? Is his range really that tight?

For the river, he could be betting his AQ for value. So you call, getting 2.5:1.

So, maybe you lay down on the river, which is somewhat weak. Or reraise the flop to, say, $60, which gets you mostly all-in by the river anyway, especially if he checks the turn and the river to induce your bluff.

I just don’t see how this could be one of the worst hands you played all year?

Thanks Ed.

Ed Miller
@ Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:37:35 PM
4

karbyn,

I really like this hand because it doesn’t necessarily look so bad at first, but I think it really is pretty bad overall. So it’s teachable. :)

The key to its badness is my opponent’s super nitty tendencies. If my opponent were looser and more aggressive, the play would be much more reasonable… and against some players I think this line might be nearly optimal.

But against a super nit, this is really very poorly played. I’ll start with the river. This is a super easy laydown precisely because this player never, ever shoves the river with just AQ in this situation. Not only can he lose to AK, but there’s a freaking FLUSH on board (nits hate flushes when they don’t have one). :)

With AQ, nit shoves river basically never. He might throw out a wimpy blocking bet, or he might check. This is really a very key point… because if the nitty player shows weakness, then I might have a value shove. Because at that point AQ becomes a very reasonable option.

(Though I’d prefer to see that weakness on the turn when the flush card comes, rather than on the river. Turn strength and river weakness could be AT or a set from a nitty player.)

But without any show of weakness, I really don’t think AQ is in his range anymore. Again, if the player is looser and more aggressive, the river call is fine and perhaps the whole hand is played well. But you just can’t go paying off nits like this.

Yes, I like 3-betting the nit because I think I win immediately a lot, and when I don’t I think I do sometimes get calls from hands I dominate (especially if he thinks I’m a wild 3-bettor which is entirely possible given the way I play :) ) and have a shot to win pots against hands like TT and JJ postflop without hitting my pair.

On the flop I like just raising for value. The key point is that I’m unlikely to induce action from hands like KK and QQ by flat calling because this player is so nitty. He’s probably just going to shut down with those hands once the ace flops. So I want to just pick up the pot immediately, and I want to give myself a chance to win more money from a hand like AQ. And I also don’t give a cheap card to his relatively rare flush draw hands if I raise the flop.

karbyn
@ Wed Nov 19, 2008 09:09:52 AM
5

OK, so you are saying because he was so squeaky tight, he could only have a hand that beats TPTK.
What would have been a better way to play this? Raise PF, and raise again on the flop? And if he is still with you on that turn, you should check and fold? SPR dependent, of course.

Were you slow playing, or just be cautious on the flop? Then why do you feel compelled to call on the turn?

Is there any way he has AcAx or 5c5X and playing trips rather than the flush? What is you have trips? How often is a ten high flush good?

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