Q&A #110: On Getting Stacked

I would like to respectfully disagree that you’ll see light 3-bets from lower hands at these levels. At levels like this, if you get 3-bet, you’re against Jacks, Queens, Kings, Aces, or AK. Usually Kings or AK, as if someone has aces, they’ll just throw it all in, and if someone has jacks, they’re usually more cautious.

At least, that’s what I see on Cake and Poker4Ever ..

Natcheztoo,

in case you have PokerTracker: see if you find games where there was a 3-bet preflop and take a note of the hole cards. Hopefully you’ll get a decent sample size (above 30 at least IMHO). Then take a look at the range. You might be surprised!

Greyzy

I took the medicine that I just recommended myself…

It took me about 1 hour to go through 870 hands in order to come up with a sample size of 30 hands where there was a 3-bet preflop (3.5% occurance). These are all hands from PokerStars 0.05-0.10$ NL turbo full ring games. I don’t know how to format anything here, so be prepared for a messy looking table…

Explanation:
- I sorted the table by the hand of the 3-bettor (all pairs first, then by highest card, suited first)!
- column 1 & 2: hand of the 2-bettor and to what total he raised
- column 3 & 4: hand of the 3-bettor and to what total he raised
- column 5: action of the 2-bettor and the EFFECTIVE stack remaining (if there were more than 2 players left I took the 2nd biggest stack, because that’s the most that can still be won)

Here’s the table:

2-bettor to BB 3-bettor to BB 2-bettor
AKo 3 AA 15 called (67BB left)
JJ 2 KK 5 called (66BB left)
Q2s 2 QQ 7 called (AI)
88 3 QQ 10 called (92BB left)
A3o 2 QQ 6 raise to 10 (19BB left)
88 5 JJ 21 called (AI)
AA 4 JJ 16 (AI) called
AQs 2 JJ 6 called (104BB left)
?? 4 JJ 10 called (32BB left)
TT 5 JJ 40 called AI (23BB)
AJo 4 TT 6 called (50BB left)
QQ 3 TT 5 raise AI (97BB)
A4s 2 TT 20 raise AI (60BB)
QQ 7 99 20 (AI) called
KK 5 66 22 (AI) called
QQ 5 66 9 raise AI (54BB)
?? 4 AKo 17 called by 3rd player
A9o 3 AKo 7 called
KK 5 AQo 12 called (8BB left)
AKo 7 AQo 9.5 (AI) called
AQs 8 AJs 29 (AI) called
JTs 3 AJo 22 (AI) called
QJs 5 ATs 10 called (11BB left)
AQo 3 ATs 6 called (49BB left)
AKo 2 ATo 6 called (64BB left)
KQs 3 ATo 10 called (66BB left)
AA 4 A9s 7 raise to 17 (146BB left)
A4o 3 A7s 4.5 (AI) called
A3o 5 KJs 9.5 (AI) called
AQo 4 QTs 7 called (92BB left)

At least in this sample the 3-bettor had a WORSE hand than what Ed wrote about above (JJ+; AK) in 60% of the hands!

I only checked games where the hole cards from at least 2 players were known, so I would have skipped a hand where the 2-bettor folded to a 3-bet. My impression though is that this “never” occured. But to check this is a task I’d like to hand over to the rest of the community here…

Greyzy

Ooops, this looks really messy…

Just to make sure you understand the table here’s the first line:
2-bettor | to BB | 3-bettor | to BB | 2-bettor’s action
AKo | 3 | AA | 15 | called (67BB left)

Greyzy

grrrrr…. (spaces are condensed!!!!!)

maybe this looks better:

2-bettor | to BB | 3-bettor | to BB | 2-bettor’s action
_____AKo |_____3 |_______AA |____15 | called (67BB left)

I finally managed to put the table in a decent looking format in the original post. Please go to the message board in case you are interested!

Greyzy

Grenzy,

That’s some interesting work. The thing that makes it more interesting to me is that we are looking at hands that saw a showodwn. This means both players hands are going to be stronger. For example, if I 3-bet with 76s then I am either hoping for a fold preflop or on the flop or I am mostly going to showdown with a monster(which is rare). This means that people are 3-betting with even worse hands at these stakes. Still, since the 3-bettor is usually behind that does say a lot.

Gentlemen:

As I have said before, I have devoted almost all my efforts to studying tournament play for NL Hold’em. On line and locally I am doing pretty good; at low stakes tournaments I am ahead money.

The cash game is something in which I never thought I would have an interest. However, there is a limited number of tournaments locally, and while there is no poker room on the only casino here, The Isle of Capri, two more are slated to open in the near future. Both are reputed to be opening with poker rooms. And there are a few cash games in the area.

So, since I “love/hate” poker so much, I am looking for more live venues in which to play and the cash games seem the only thing available.

I own, but have not read Ed’s book on cash games and both of Harrington’s. I intend to start one of them soon.

So, a lot of the “techniques” and even the terminology you use in your impressive responses to Ed’s article are just “over yonder hill” for me at the present. I think I know three-bet when it is done to me. I have actually thought, “I have to try that.” It usually backfires when I do as a lot of times they “four-bet!”

A lot of mention is made about bankrolls and the number of blinds you have. I have bought in short and regular to try and play both ways. I still don’t have a great handle on short stack play. Maybe the books will help. And I consider my potential “bankroll” huge if I wanted to fund it to that extent. I don’t. I think I have to get successful at each level and then move up.

Poker Tracker with HUD is mentioned prominently. I guess I have to have it if I hope to compete. I looked at the website, and it seems to say that you can see your opponents holdings as soon as the hand is over even if they didn’t show down their hand. Is this correct?

For my last two sessions I stepped down to .10 SB and .25 BB 6max. I have been buying in for $15.00 or 60BB. In two sessions of about an hour to hour and a half I was up $29.40 and $26.70. I don’t think this means anything as I was having that kind of success at .25 and .50 for eight consecutive days. But the games do seem less aggressive than the higher level.

Ed wrote: Finally, what Todd mentioned in the thread about your bankroll for the game is appropriate. At $0.25-$0.50 online 6-max, even an excellent player could definitely lose $1,000 or more in the span of just a few days just by hitting a bad patch of luck. Mediocre, but slightly winning, players could easily lose $3,000 or more over the course of 50,000 hands on a really bad run. Online poker is tough. The quality of play is high, the games are aggressive, and the pace is frantic which can often amplify the effect any tilt may have on your results.

It seems unimaginable to me that this kind of money could be lost at this level in the time span mentioned. Did Ed mean these amounts can be lost by undisciplined players or gamblers? By good players? Or, as is usually the case, I may be deceiving myself about how the game is played. I cannot imagine getting busted time after time and continually coming back for more over that period of time. Wouldn’t that indicate that a break, more study, or a time of reflection and introspection was due?

Today, just for the record, here are my actual live cash game results:

I can rationalize some of my play as follows:

12/23/07: I have A-A, a guy on my left raises to 5BB ($25) I re-raise to $75.00. He calls. The flop is J-7-7, and he immediately goes all-in. I call, and with J-J in his hand he has flopped a full house. Busted.

I rebuy, and later have A-K. I raise to 5BB and am called. The flop is A-8-4, and my lone opponent goes all-in. I call to find out that he was holding 8-4o and called my preflop raise. His flopped two pair hold up. Busted and through.

My friend, a former house player in Los Angeles, told me afterwards: “Here, if they go all-in here they almost always have it.” Shoulda told me earlier. I guess.

02/31/08: I had just come in second in a $55.00 buy-in tournament and won $385.00. I sat down at the “second” (the first was full [eleven players] and the players much stronger) cash game table and bought in for $300.00.

My first hand was A-K and in a $2 – $5 game I opened for 5BB. Everybody folded to a player on my right who called. The flop was K-8-4 with two hearts. The lone opponent, acting before me, went all-in for his last $125.00. I called. He turned over a four-flush and hit it.

The very next hand I had A-J, and last to act I opened for 5BB. One player on my right called. The flop was J-7-4 rainbow. He went all-in, and I called for my remaining chips. He had a set of fours. Busted and out.

But the session that troubles me the most was the one that follows:

05/28/08. I bought in for $500 in a $2 – $5 game. These opponents are among the “very best” in the area and have been playing cash games for years to decades. Early on I increased my chip stack to $1100 by trapping against the “scariest” player in the bunch with an ace of spades nut flush I made on the turn. I knew the scary guy was extremely aggressive so I checked on the turn. He threw $375.00 into the pot immediately, and I went all-in for my remaining $125.00 chips. He called with a lower flush.

Then I discovered what must be a leak in my game; I sat there and bled off all but $85.00 in chips. On my last hand I, last to act, I went all in for the $85.00. The scary guy called and hit a straight on the river to wipe me out.

I was really disappointed my play after winning early. One hand I had A-Q and bet 5BB before the flop. One player called. The flop was 8-8-9, and I made $60.00 continuation bet. He called. The turn was a 9, and I checked. He bet $100.00 and I just, for some idiotic reason, didn’t think he had anything. He called. On the river a blank came, but he bet $200.00. I thought: the pot is too big not to call. When I did he said, “You win, I have the idiot full house.” He had 8s full of nines and thought I had 9s full of eights.

I was told the next day that this particular guy hardly ever bluffs. But, at this level, that can’t be true.

The line of discernment between being brave and chicken, between thinking they have it or they do not, and the line between calling and folding is definite problem for me.

Any advice or criticism of anything above will be cheerfully accepted.

Natcheztoo

The table with my live cash game results did not show up. Todate I have played six times, mostly in $2-$5 games with a $300 minimum buy-in.

The first date mentioned above I bought in for $300.00 twice and got busted on the described hands.

The second was a $300 buy-in at a $2 – $5 game.

The third was a $500 buy in $2 – $5 game, and it was the one in which I seriously doubted my play.

Finally, on all six efforts I am down $725.00.

Natcheztoo

…snip…
Poker Tracker with HUD is mentioned prominently. I guess I have to have it if I hope to compete. I looked at the website, and it seems to say that you can see your opponents holdings as soon as the hand is over even if they didn’t show down their hand. Is this correct?
…snip…

This is just a convenience thing. At most sites, all of the cards from showdown are captured in the sites hand histories, even if they are not displayed at the table. You could look at the last hand and see them for yourself. PokerTracker displays them after showdown to save you that step. There are a couple of sites that don’t show mucked hands at showdown, but they are in the minority. So, PokerTracker isn’t giving you information that isn’t available to everyone, it is just making it more convenient.

…snip…
Ed wrote: Finally, what Todd mentioned in the thread about your bankroll for the game is appropriate. At $0.25-$0.50 online 6-max, even an excellent player could definitely lose $1,000 or more in the span of just a few days just by hitting a bad patch of luck. Mediocre, but slightly winning, players could easily lose $3,000 or more over the course of 50,000 hands on a really bad run. Online poker is tough. The quality of play is high, the games are aggressive, and the pace is frantic which can often amplify the effect any tilt may have on your results.

It seems unimaginable to me that this kind of money could be lost at this level in the time span mentioned. Did Ed mean these amounts can be lost by undisciplined players or gamblers? By good players? Or, as is usually the case, I may be deceiving myself about how the game is played. I cannot imagine getting busted time after time and continually coming back for more over that period of time. Wouldn’t that indicate that a break, more study, or a time of reflection and introspection was due?
…snip…

Sometimes things just don’t go your way. I’ve had a friend who is an excellent player drop 3 buy-ins in 4 hands. 4 hands. Given the hands, there was no way he wasn’t stacking off in each case. That’s just the nature of NL. I am a winning player and have had multiple 10 buy-in downswings. It’s just the way it goes.

Natcheztoo,

I feel your pain…

This could be a form of what Ed has previously refered to as “take a stand” tilt. The problem is that great hands happen frequently, and while we likely get our fair share, so too do the 5 to 9 other people we are playing with. So you have to be very certain your opponent is bluffing (or is desparate or a maniac) before you call that all-in bet, because chances are he/she has at least two pair.

Learning to fold decent hands in the face of serious aggression is a hard task, likely because our emotions are involved (ie attachment to our hand). I struggle with this a lot and one thing that helps when I have top pair and someone has just made a big push is to keep telling myself to conserve my chips for a clear win, because the nuts will come again.

If you get second best and that hand is at average good enough to get all-in you’re going to get stacked. That is No Limit. You can read a thousand books and understand the game very well but you can’t do anything against that.
After reading some books and reading some articles on the internet I thought I knew a lot about the game and therefore should have a great edge on my opponents. No way.
Unless your opponents are calling their stack off with middle or underpair, are drawing (hugely)against the odds or are way too loose preflop and fold if they don’t hit postflop.. in short the really bad players you’re edge is marginal.
I no longer believes in that bullshit that if your opponent never checkraise on the river (just for example) that you have a significant edge against this guy. Just one bad run and you can spend a year making up with your check raise edge.
I really believe that, since online poker has become much tougher and more aggresive lately, it is really difficult to earn some (good) money online. I now play 1 table, 6 max, NL 0.12/0.25 on Pacific Poker and I think (I dont use software but keep records of my wins and losses)that my win rate per hour is between 1/2 dollar(this could be different because I dont keep exact track of my playing hours). I must add that I don’t use any software, maybe that could make a difference in my profit expectation.

Summarize: The edges in (online)poker are slim. I am sceptic to anyone saying that they win a lot playing poker (online).

In this respect.. when do we get another update of your online results Ed? The last one was from March.

Thanks Ed for your quick reply. Also comforting for my ego that you also “struggle” online.
I dont play much live but I am up quite a bit live. I really feel that I have a much bigger edge live, seeing my opponents.. but as I said, I haven’t been playing much live, so it could also be a good run of the cards.

I really like Eric’s comment and Grenzy’s analysis. I have found that at the smaller stakes you’re talking about players don’t even know what “3 bet” means let alone what range they 3 bet with. Consequently, players min raise, 2 bet, 3 bet, 4 bet etc… without much discretion.

In saying that I agree with Ed & Grenzy with their range analysis but also believe at higher levels 5/10 NL (in my experience) players have the ability to reraise with a much wider range ie. (45suited in position).