Q&A #102: Online Poker Multitabling How-To

I was vaguely aware that this software was out there. Reading about it is disconcerting. Most poker players feel like they meet on a level playing field, one in which the ability to interpret and remember an opponents style of play is a skill for the poker player, never intended to outsourced by whatever god in Texas Hodum invented the game.

24 tables at once, head-up displays, analysis software…i’m sure it’s entertaining and possibly even profitable…i’m just not sure it’s poker anymore…it sounds more like some sort of sick amalgam of day trading and a video game…but that’s just me.

Ed,

thanks for your detailed answers! Very interesting to hear about PokerPad and SpadeEye, which I didn’t know about before. PokerTracker is a very valuable tool that I use myself. When I started playing Limit HE I used it a LOT to play back my own hands, analyze my mistakes. I also exchanged hand histories with others for a mutual analysis and discussion, which improved my game a lot (strongly recommended!).

The way multi-tabling “works” I suppose there’s just no time to do that kind of “homework”, especially with the huge number of hands you can play within a few hours (I guess multi-tabling doesn’t work for the “homework” ).

I agree with GregB that with multi-tabling the fun game of poker “degenerates” to an unentertaining hectical routine. Well, everybody’s free to do what he wants, but it’s surely not the way I want to play poker.

What I would like to see (and this has been mentioned before) are tables exclusive for single-tablers. That would keep all that set miners away that turn the tables into rock gardens. Do you have any idea why the sites don’t offer that?

Something that really pisses me off is the fact that datatmining works while WATCHING tables! Recording hands when I was part of the table is OK, but that’s something you can also do in B&M casinos (OK, not with the perfect accuracy as online, but in theory you could). But watching 10 tables in a B&M casino simultaneously especially without being in the hand is impossible.

Until today I was under the impression that only people that I had a hand history on could also have the same on me. Sort of “equilibrium of weapons”. Thanks for clearing that up!

Happy Easter!
Greyzy

Greyzy,

The answer would be to not play on sites that support these software tools. For instance, SpadeEye didn’t list UltimateBet as being compatible. I’ve tried PokerTracker on UB and I think you have to be playing at a table in order to pull hand histories. You may not be able to get back to a level playing field, but there’s no reason to give up all the ground.

Players at UB (and Absolute) have far more to worry about than the other players using PT, PAHUD, or SpadeEye – both those sites have been rocked by insider cheating (yes, employees cheating the customers) and no one should be playing at either site AT ALL anymore, IMO. Google “cheating absolute poker” or “cheating ultimate bet” for all the gory details.

I just want to reiterate what Ken wrote. I hope everyone will stop playing at UB and AP. It’s just the scandals, but the way they handle the scandals one they came to light. Please research this topics and come to your own conclusions though.

Hi!
I wonder if online poker has changed much in the 7 months of my absence. You know, I didn’t even use Poker Tracker, I only recorded all my sessions to have stats etc. and was looking through hand histories after each one.
Now, reading this article was a bit upsetting. On the other hand, I should have no worry but plug the software and enjoy my game (however, probably it may be a bit tough, no?)
Thanks Ed for eye-opener anyway!
Pawel

well, for the cheating at online poker. It is really sad. I have stated somewhere else on the page that since those scandals not a single person’s claims on being cheated can be treated not seriously.
The famous statement of Steve Badger, that owners of poker sites do not cheat for they would act against their own income no longer holds. Probably it never did anyway – the money one steals may taste better to them then the money one earns and if cheating would be run reasonably, inelligently, then it will never come out (luck-factor, you heard it before right?)
Pawel

Interesting. I knew a little about Pokertracker and PAHUD, but the others are new to me.

The above comments made me think about a similar effect in the stock market. There we have the “Efficient Market Theory”, which in a nutshell says that if a company’s stock price is low and it is a good investment, everyone knows it and starts buying it. This pushes the price up until it is no longer a good investment. Similarly, if a company does poorly then everyone sells and pushes the price so low that it may become a decent investment at the low price.

In other words, the stock price is driven to a level where it is in equilibrium with all the other stocks – it’s no better and also no worse than the rest.

This is basically what happened in poker. Years ago, online poker was a great profession to have. It was much easier to make $100k/year in poker than it was to do the same in other professions. This attracted a lot of opportunists. Software people wrote tools and sold them to make their profits. Players used these tools to multitable. And bots and cheaters rushed in to get a share too.

All this makes it much more difficult to make a lot of money with online poker.

Now just as the Efficient Market Theory works both ways, this must work both ways too. As more and more people do the above, it will continue getting more difficult to make money in online poker. Eventually, it will become easier to make that $100K/year in other professions (if we aren’t there already). When that happens, people will tend to stop paying attention to poker and go over to those other occupations. That should relieve the pressure on poker a little bit.

So the bottom line is, I believe that the opportunity to make money in online poker will never go away completely, but instead we will reach an equilibrium where you have to work at least as hard to get it as you would in any other career. Perhaps you will have to work harder, because many people perceive poker to be better than working a 9 to 5 job and are therefore attracted to it even if the money they make is somewhat less. But there has to be an equilibrium somewhere – if it becomes totally impossible to make any money then people would stop trying to, and would go do something else instead. That very fact should make it possible to make some money again.

@jjs

sorta agree, but this is no limit hold’em we’re talking about. it’s a game where a certain % of useless players make it due to luck and another % of useless people are deluded enough to think that they have the skills to make it even after losing 200 buy ins.

there will always be plenty of fish around.

Hi Ed,

You should write an article on exploiting multi-tabling/distracted opponents.

It seems like you could make money from them by stealing their blinds and stabbing at tiny pots.

hey guys,

SpadeEye/data mining is not legal on pstars:

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/prohibited/

Be sure to check your site’s rules before buying spadeeye.

Poker Tracker and Poker Ace are legal on most sites though.

Ed:

Just found your site…excellent!

This topic is a hot button for me…

1. The online sites should ban all these tools. Why don’t they? Or, just offer all this information to all their players for free?

And, if none of the above, the online site should have some type of icon next to the players who are using these devices at the table. So, everyone is aware of the situation.

2. These tools have become a widespread and accepted form of cheating. Poker is a great game and it should be an even playing field. This hurts the game.

3. Everyone who uses these tools knows they are cheating. Proof: Think back to the first time you used any of these programs. Did you think, “This is a waste of money,” or “Wow, this is going to give me an edge and help win the other guy’s money!”

4. These tools do not help to attract more players nor do they help in the reputation of online poker. Our respected poker leaders should speak out against this nonsense.

5. What if this existed at your local card room, but the card room only allowed one player at each table to use a similar tool? You wouldn’t be too happy. And, you might leave. In fact, you mentioned that you only want to play at a table where there is a fish–makes sense, but you should have to figure it out on your own.

Of course, your card room doesn’t allow devices at the table to help you win. You can’t even use your cell phone.

Conclusion:

I know we all love technology but these tools don’t help the game they just help you take advantage of those players unaware, with information that gives you an unfair edge.

Players complain that the sites rip people off. Well, I think players are ripping other players off as well.

Confession:

I bought one of these packages months ago–and it helped my limit cash game a lot…it was ridiculous how “smart” I became in my decision making. At first, I was really happy with my winnings, but later on, I had 2 thoughts:
1) I was angry that other players were probably taking advantage of my poker habits using these programs for months–meaning I felt cheated and 2) I felt like I was cheating.

As a result, I have eliminated all ring games except one that I know they don’t track–called Razz. (Yeah, I know no one likes the game.) I do play in tournaments, without the software…and have stopped using it all together.

I’m sure you and/or your visitors will shoot me down on this, but just because the other guy is doing it, doesn’t make it right. Sounds really moralistic for a poker blog, I know.

Ed, let’s say I don’t use all that software and my friend, Mark, is. We are, hypothetical, exactly equally skilled. I am playing 2 tables maximum. Mark is playing six.
When I am sitting at Mark’s table, does he have an edge? And if there is, can you quantify that edge in expectation?
Greetings,
Pim

Full Tilt site terms, item 8:
“Full Tilt Poker prohibits the use of external player assistance programs (EPA Programs) which are designed to provide users with an unfair advantage over their opponents. Full Tilt Poker defines external to mean computer software (other than the Full Tilt Poker game client), and non-software-based databases or profiles (e.g., web sites and subscription services). Full Tilt Poker defines an unfair advantage as a user accessing or compiling information on other players beyond that which the user has personally observed through his or her own game play.”

Just how can some of that software not be in violation of that term?

/j.

I totally agree with you Mitchell!!
Ed, although I respect you a lot and I know all your motives are right I don’t understand that you say: “But I sort of accept that online play is not just live play transferred to the internet. It’s a different game with different rules and skills emphasized.”
If it is a different game then don’t call it poker. I want to play poker on the internet and not a different game.

I hope there will be POKERrooms available in the near future and not rooms where you can play a computerized controlled card game.

The first step and most important one should be simple. Forbid multitabling.

Do you think using poker books and websites is cheating too? It’s people’s own fault for not arming themselves with knowledge (which Ed is trying to help them with).

Hate multi-tablers? You could play heads-up where concentration is key or go to a live game. Also, if sites try to limit a user’s number of tables, they can open 4 or 5 other sites on the same pc and play as many as they want.

There is nothing wrong with poker tracker or pokerace. They take hands you have played and give random, faceless foes a personality. In live games it’s much easier to size someone up.

If you break a rule that a site has set, then and only then is it cheating.

So the use of SpadeEye seems to be against the FullTilt rules, doesn’t it?

Isn’t the heads-up play a field where statistic-based programs and mutlitabling shines?

Pim,
what is for you ‘equally skilled’ in online environment?
Unfortunately the use of these tools is also a skill. They are available to everyone, openly, widely, they’re legal, accepted in the online poker players society. Using them cannot be called cheating or compared to cheating at real (I mean physical) poker table.

In this game, the edge of good players (not those running good, those who master poker science)have constantly been benefiting from the uninformed tourists mistakes… it will always make poker profitable for some and a vast majority will lose money. That’s Poker, as selective as it gets. Now when fishes multitable you got multiple advantage. Don’t forget that a learning poker player is still a good fish for better players and that a lot of learning player like to multitable…

Ed,
do you remember that blog entry?
I don’t know how you feel today, but it’s really funny to read this today AFTER reading about all this multitabling.
Are there bots at online tables..? I do not think so anymore.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to put you down nor judge anybody. I only think that what’s killing online poker aren’t bots but just skilled players using the tools. (I guess tht for many, many, many people reading this comment about poker getting killed will be just ridiculous, with regard to their income from the game, am I mistaken?)
Pawel

Oops! Please Ed, edit the link in my post.

Good one…”accepted in the online poker players society.” Who is in that society? Never heard of them? Who got to vote? You sure all online poker players got a say…hecky, I bet all online poker players know about these software tools.

Funny stuff.

Also, at what point would you call it cheating:

Software that shows your opponents cards?
Software that makes it easier to collude between players?
Software that tells you how often your opponent is likely to bluff on the turn?
Software that are bots and play for you with a positive EV?

Oh yeah, the argument about web sites and books being cheating is a straw dog.

Why are you (as a member of that online poker society) afraid of doing everything possible to make it a level playing field?

Simply because you are afraid someone else may be cheating you and/or you play better with these tools.

I’m not judging you for using these tools–since if the sites allow them so be it. What I am saying is that it is not in the best interest of the game to allow these tools that “snoop” on the behavior of your opponents?

Heck, that leads to the issue of invasion of privacy rights..and these companies that provide personal information about me as a poker player to my opponents seems like, oh no, worthy of a law suit.

I bet you would feel different if I bought your credit report info without your permission.

So, why can you buy information about my poker playing tendencies? Don’t you and I have the right of privacy?

I do think it is really bad for the game. The beauty of the game is to play a mental warfare, men to men. Not software against software, whats the fun in that in the end? Now those in favour of the software are positive because they can make a (better) profit because a lot of players don’t use the software. But what if everybody used it and played according to the software. It should not be to difficult to create a standard strategy based on the software.. there will be no more real bad players then who to profit from.

I play semi professional tennis. If there came an invention on the market with a superracket which does all the hitting for you I would quit immediately. I would not like to play that game.

I can see why this is a concern but I think this is merely what makes online poker so different to Live poker and its multitablings great as you can make so much more$/hr than you could ever hope for one-tabling at a Live game of the same stakes.

On the other hand I do worry that everyone will eventually have all the software stated but even then I think knowing how to use all the stats at your disposal is a skill in itself which I doubt 100% of poker players will ever become efficient at.

Ed wrote:”I don’t see why SpadeEye would violate the rule you guys quoted, though. It’s just table selection software. Perhaps you meant the datamining function? I could see your argument there, but in that case Full Tilt’s own software easily allows you to datamine, and SpadeEye is only marginally more helpful in that respect. Also, datamining would be trivially easy for Full Tilt to recognize and ban… if datamining is against their rules then they should enforce it.”

Well, as I see it, the site rules clearly state that unless you have seen the hand go down PERSONALLY, then you can’t datamine it. That’s why I think SpadeEye could be a violation, because you open up a load of tables and go and make coffee. When you come back the software will tell you where to play.

Anyway, I’ve asked Full Tilt. When I have an answer I’ll post it on my blog.

I honestly don’t understand all the bickering going on here. If you don’t approve the use of these software, you can choose a site that disallows the use of said software, or you could play live only. Or play heads-up, like someone mentioned. Not allowing multi-tabling is a ridiculous idea; one of the best things about playing on the Internet is being able to play more hands with ease, why not benefit from it?

It’s also pretty apparent from the comments that some of you have very little idea of what you’re actually talking about – I suggest looking into the matter, for your own sake.

“Well, as I see it, the site rules clearly state that unless you have seen the hand go down PERSONALLY, then you can’t datamine it. That’s why I think SpadeEye could be a violation, because you open up a load of tables and go and make coffee. When you come back the software will tell you where to play.”

Well, no. The thing is, you can do this without SpadeEye – just open up a bunch of tables and the hand histories will be saved on your HDD. So I suppose according to your view Full Tilt’s software is violating its own TOS

Reply from Full Tilt Support:
”
Thank you for contacting Full Tilt Poker Support.

You can find Full Tilt Poker’s list of prohibited programs on our
website at:

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/prohibited_programs.php

Please keep in mind that we are continuously updating this list as new
programs are developed or discovered.

Also, please note that all players are required to abide by our terms
and conditions page which outlines additional guidelines that may
restrict the use of a program not found on this list. To view our terms
and conditions please visit the following link:

http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/site-terms

Please pay specific attention to rules #8 and #9 as these directly
pertain to using third-party software on Full Tilt Poker.

We appreciate your business. If there’s anything else we can assist you
with, please let us know.

Regards,

Jeremy S
Poker Specialist
Full Tilt Poker Support”
—
And to save everyones time, SpadeEye is NOT on the blacklist. If it ever gets there, time will tell.

I still think it’s a problematic issue that goes beyond simple table selection. But at least they won’t kick a player using these kind of dataminers. Yet.

/j.

@48-tabler: You can see the last 50 hands played on any table, if you keep the window open. But only tables where you are sitting down saves to your disk.

At least thats how it works on my machine…

/j.

must work differently on my machine, then

“For instance, I filter my SpadeEye to show me only players currently playing who have a VP$IP (Voluntarily Put Money In the Pot Preflop) stat of 35% or greater.”

Are there any other statistics that could be used or you suggest? (I find this one invaluable.)

Hello guys,

I am a newbie to poker and especially to internet poker. I am playing internet poker for only two months. I definitely believe that you are in a big disadvantage when playing against guys using this software.

My question is this: Is it possible to change your playing name when playing online? If you would change your playing name every week for example, in week 1 you are John Rambo for example, in week 2 your are Hulk Hogan etc etc. In that case, they are never able to have a history of your playing record. This seems so obvious that I feel that I am missing something. Can anybody help me?

Ben

nope, Ben, you can’t change your name once you chose it.

@Ben/Pawel
Some sites do allow it, but most of the bigger sites dont. And the ones that allow it only once every 2 months orso usually.

Ben, yes, there is a site that allow this, I’m not sure if I’m allowed to link to anything here so just google around.

Pokerstars players should note that SpadeEye is currently on their list of prohibited software.

Hmm, seems to me that people are forgetting one thing in this discussion. A winning player will win with or without the software. A losing player will not turn into a winning player with the software. Nothing has really changed except for a small edge for winning players, and small edges are only used by very good players, you still have to use the software efficiently.
I dont see the problem here, nothing changes…

I think people are getting too hot under the collar about these tools.

I started online poker a year ago and have all of the above software but yet am still only playing at the $25NL tables.

All the software mentioned is not going to suddenly make you a better player or give you a big edge over other players. They will certainly save time in table selection if you want to find overly loose or overy aggressive players etc. And it will help multi-tablers to quickly label players as TAG, LAG, rock, etc – but it’s not going to say how good a player they are or how to play against them! They don’t tell you if someone doesn’t know his pot odds, calls raises with junk against two rocks, or has suddenly gone on spew tilt after being sucked out on. I bet Ed could sit at my table and over the course of 20 hands come up with lots of ways of getting my money off me, and none of it will be because over 20k hands I’m running at 20% VPIP and 15% PFR or whatever.

I would even dare say that people will evolve styles (if they haven’t done so already) that will have high VPIPs, PFRs, etc so that non thinking opponents using the software will assume that they’re the fish they’re after when in reality they’re the ones being hunted. How many players are going to be worse off because they’re using the software thinking it’s a silver bullet and they don’t have to think and study anymore?

Multi-tabling has it’s place but isn’t going to help me improve my game beyond getting lots of hands under my belt, which needs to be done to put theory into practice and get a feel for the game. The software can help multi-tabling only so much and you’ve still got to play the players and not their stats.

The biggest benefit of all the software is that it allows detailed analysis and continual improvement of your own game. No longer can you think you’re a winning player because of your selective memory. You can see in black and white which hands are your biggest losers (when I started it was JJ so I realised I had to work at letting it go, now it’s AQ so I come fully awake whenever I’m dealt the dreaded AQ). I know my turn aggression is less than my river aggression which might be an indication of more room for improvement (although what it’s a symptom of I’m not good enough to know yet). It’s all about plugging your biggest leaks and improving your game brick by brick.

Sooo, IMO the software is no substitute for thinking, playing good poker, and continually improving. Their biggest benefit is to help you look at your own game. And if you’re worried about people playing you because they have stats on you, then turn the tables and come up with a way of using that against them. Now that would be good poker wouldn’t it?

If I run into you in a game where you are using Poker Tracker, and a HUD, and you are running a bunch of tables, I will run all over you. Relying on PT information to make decisions basically turns you into a poor version of a computer using those stats to decide what to do in a given situation.

I was out at the casino playing live last night,a nd there was this guy who I’ve seen a handful of times out there.. he’s totally lost and hasn’t the slightest idea what to do without PT .. it’s hilarious, and the entire table ran him down, including the wife of one of the guys that had been sitting there all night (who was not experienced enough to play against anyone else)

Ed, I’d be interested in knowing how you lay out your tables on the screen and what resolution you use. I currently play 4 tables only because I find it hard to see the HUD stats if I tile more than 4 (I use a 1600 x 1200 monitor). And if I cascade them I find it hard to follow the action.

What setup do you have/use? Thanks

Cake, Sportsbook, and whatever other sites use the Cake software do not allow the use of third party programs. While this may be the unenforced policy of other networks, in this case Poker Tracker isn’t even compatible with Cake. So you can’t use it even if you’re willing to break the rules. Furthermore, they allow you to change your name once per week.

As a result, I find the competition to be much softer there than when I played on PokerStars and Full Tilt. I think it has less to do with the gamblers moving over to poker from the sportsbook (as many reviews claim) and more to do with the lack of anyone using trackers… other than the extreme few who have found or created some other way to do it.

If you don’t like trackers, get an epassport account and play on Cake. Cake has the exact same rooms and players as Sportsbook, but their customer service is infinitely faster (replies in 10 minutes instead of 2 days) and cashouts are faster and more reliable.

I swear this wasn’t the purpose of my last message, but once I thought about it I felt compelled to mention that if you sign up to Cake you should put my email in for the refer-a-friend bonus. Why bother? Because they’ll give you an *EXTRA* 100% bonus on your first deposit in ADDITION to the normal 100% deposit bonus. And… they’ll give me one too. Hee =) I wish I had known about that before I signed up. I would have found someone to give me their email. Oh well… ABCpdx_electro@yahoo.comABC. I put the ABC in front and back to try and foil email address spam bot thingies.

I sound like a Cake poker employee or something. I swear I’m not. I just like the fact that no one there really uses trackers or HUDs.

Hello guys! there is one thing that could terminate this problem once and for all.
if the poker sites allowed us to change nickname, then this problem would not exist, but why dont they? some of the sites are actually affiliates with the software developer. you seen it everywhere “get this software for free” by signing up to pokersite trough us. so my theory is the poker sites are unwilling to do it cus that will stop the flow of new players from these sites. if we where allowed to change name after every session then nobody would know who we where. so how can we protect us from being logged and spyed at?, we can’t but we can make it alot more difficult for them by being more deceptive. in other words sacrifice some of the +EV to get a higher long term +EV. for example.
if your play is to raise when you get a nut flush draw, then don’t do it allways! if you do it 50% then they will have no clue what to put you on. don’t “allways” do the same play, no matter what the situation or hand. you could even check AK when the flop is 89K with 2 hearts and instead go for a check-raise on the Turn you must mix it up to confuse. another example, dont allways raise with AK pre-flop mix it up!

Hey Ed,

I know I bothered you for a bit last few months about getting back into playing online. I hadn’t played since the neteller fiasco. But as of a few weeks ago can now direct deposit again out of “poker” bank account, I have started playing online. Serioulsy this time, back in the limit days of 03-04ish I didn’t even have software and legal live poker became available anyway.

Ok, that was just some background. I never enjoyed online like live poker but I’m really getting into it, so, I scanned past articles but didn’t see anything directly to a few questions i have.
Not just for Ed, but anyone out there.

#1. I’m using hold’em manager and mainly just looking at vpip and pfr. What is next important stat I should start to use? ( full-ring player)

#2. I have been 4-tabling from get go. tried 5 & 6 couple times. 1 monitor. Do you guys like stack your windows,scatter them around, or what when you get over 4. I make them smaller for full-time viewing I can’t see them godd enough.

#3. I’m playing FT. their slider seems clumsy to me. Is there a way to keyboard in bet amount or does everyone find it clumsy?

#4. Don’t laugh at me, I’m old. but my wrist is aching some. Can you get carpal from a mouse? Or is it just old motorcylce accidents coming back to haunt me? Do you guys rig anything or whatever for long hours at tables?

that’s it. I know I’ll have more as time goes by. these are mostly physical facility questions. I have made some adjustments, mainly not playing like a lag idiot because each individual table by itself wasn’t as much money as when I play live, but wow does it add up. Probably comes out to more with multi and number hands per hour. Thanks for indulging me guys.

Peace Out

jamlecco – yes you indeed can get carpal tunnel from using a computer for long periods of time.

You can do an Internet search on this – quite a bit has been written about maintaining a good posture at the computer. You can purchase wrist-rests for both the keyboard and the mouse that help to keep your wrists in a relaxed position. Some people find that a trackball works better for them than a mouse.

As for myself, I trained myself to use the mouse equally well with either my left hand or my right hand (does that make me “ambimousetrous”? ). So when one hand feels strained I just switch to the other for a little while.

You need to fix this problem somehow though, because believe it or not, if it gets worse you could end up needing surgery and a long recovery period to recover full use of your hand again.

A co-worker once told me that “getting old is not for sissies”. I am just now starting to understand what that means…

1) Get rakeback
2) Get Fulltilt shortcuts to help set default bet sizes, open/close popups …
3) join a training site like Deucescrack or stoxxpoker to find out what others are doing
4) good notes beat stats on a HUD
5) the stats I focus on change with time. Currently I use 3bet %, because I need to know how light I’m getting 3 bet. Some people you 4bet with JJ and others you are crushed.