Comments on: Short Stacks In Tournaments, ICM, and Playing With the Antes http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/no-limit-hold-em/short-stacks-in-tournaments-icm-and-playing-with-the-antes.html Training poker players into professional players Wed, 08 Feb 2012 22:32:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Doctor Razz http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/no-limit-hold-em/short-stacks-in-tournaments-icm-and-playing-with-the-antes.html/comment-page-1#comment-11387 Doctor Razz Sat, 01 Dec 2007 04:40:46 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/no-limit-hold-em/short-stacks-in-tournaments-icm-and-playing-with-the-antes.html#comment-11387 Ah of course, thanks Ed. Short stackers listen up. Ah of course, thanks Ed. Short stackers listen up.

]]> By: Ed Miller http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/no-limit-hold-em/short-stacks-in-tournaments-icm-and-playing-with-the-antes.html/comment-page-1#comment-11376 Ed Miller Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:33:13 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/no-limit-hold-em/short-stacks-in-tournaments-icm-and-playing-with-the-antes.html#comment-11376 Dr. Razz, It's not actually the same effect as the one you mention, since it's a winner-take-all tournament and the "chip and a chair" effect is usually due to splitting up the prizes. Having a chair doesn't have the same value in a winner-take-all because it mimics a cash game. Dr. Razz,

It’s not actually the same effect as the one you mention, since it’s a winner-take-all tournament and the “chip and a chair” effect is usually due to splitting up the prizes. Having a chair doesn’t have the same value in a winner-take-all because it mimics a cash game.

]]> By: Doctor Razz http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/no-limit-hold-em/short-stacks-in-tournaments-icm-and-playing-with-the-antes.html/comment-page-1#comment-11374 Doctor Razz Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:10:31 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/no-limit-hold-em/short-stacks-in-tournaments-icm-and-playing-with-the-antes.html#comment-11374 I love it when people apply quantum mechanics to poker! It actually forms part of the basis of my models for razz, but obviously that doesn't apply here. My comment on Ed's analysis of where the ICM breaks down for very small stacks is that it's an excellent point, but isn't it just a mathematical representation of something that we already know? One of the first things we learn as tournament players is that your last chip is worth more than any of the others in your stack because it assures you a chair. In his example, Ed is basically calculating the value of the hero's last chip. It gives him a 25% chance of having a stack of T600, so to him it's worth T150 instead of T100 in this spot. I love it when people apply quantum mechanics to poker! It actually forms part of the basis of my models for razz, but obviously that doesn’t apply here. My comment on Ed’s analysis of where the ICM breaks down for very small stacks is that it’s an excellent point, but isn’t it just a mathematical representation of something that we already know? One of the first things we learn as tournament players is that your last chip is worth more than any of the others in your stack because it assures you a chair. In his example, Ed is basically calculating the value of the hero’s last chip. It gives him a 25% chance of having a stack of T600, so to him it’s worth T150 instead of T100 in this spot.

]]> By: JJS http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/no-limit-hold-em/short-stacks-in-tournaments-icm-and-playing-with-the-antes.html/comment-page-1#comment-11351 JJS Wed, 28 Nov 2007 00:39:21 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/no-limit-hold-em/short-stacks-in-tournaments-icm-and-playing-with-the-antes.html#comment-11351 Thanks Ed for answering this. I thought I had caught you in a contradiction but you managed to slip out! So, now all we need is the quantum theory modification of ICM for small stack sizes. Are you up for it? :) Thanks Ed for answering this. I thought I had caught you in a contradiction but you managed to slip out!

So, now all we need is the quantum theory modification of ICM for small stack sizes. Are you up for it? :)

]]> By: ExMember http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/no-limit-hold-em/short-stacks-in-tournaments-icm-and-playing-with-the-antes.html/comment-page-1#comment-11347 ExMember Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:19:38 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/no-limit-hold-em/short-stacks-in-tournaments-icm-and-playing-with-the-antes.html#comment-11347 "It pays to know when [ICM] works and when it doesn’t." Help us out here, Ed. How accurate is ICM for various relative stack sizes? What models work better in situations where ICM breaks down? Or how can we adjust ICM to make it more accurate in different situations? I love SelfMade's idea, but I really doubt there's enough available data in live tournaments for it to work. Maybe if we had a good hand history database of complete single-table sit-n-goes. “It pays to know when [ICM] works and when it doesn’t.”

Help us out here, Ed. How accurate is ICM for various relative stack sizes? What models work better in situations where ICM breaks down? Or how can we adjust ICM to make it more accurate in different situations?

I love SelfMade’s idea, but I really doubt there’s enough available data in live tournaments for it to work. Maybe if we had a good hand history database of complete single-table sit-n-goes.

]]> By: SelfMade http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/no-limit-hold-em/short-stacks-in-tournaments-icm-and-playing-with-the-antes.html/comment-page-1#comment-11345 SelfMade Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:57:41 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/no-limit-hold-em/short-stacks-in-tournaments-icm-and-playing-with-the-antes.html#comment-11345 Great article Ed. I've always wondered if the basic assumption of the ICM was accurate. How accurate do people think it is for normal tournament situations? I suppose you could find pretty easily: just measure it. There's plenty of tournament data out there. Has anyone ever heard of that being done? Great article Ed. I’ve always wondered if the basic assumption of the ICM was accurate. How accurate do people think it is for normal tournament situations? I suppose you could find pretty easily: just measure it. There’s plenty of tournament data out there. Has anyone ever heard of that being done?

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