Hand Discussion #9: Caught Up in Fireworks With a Small Pair

The BB has a pretty wide range if he’s getting a big overlay with only $85 behind. He’s going to shove a lot of high card hands. He’s going to shove a lot of pocket pairs, too, but all in all, I think our equity is pretty good against him. We have to call $70 and there is $190 in the pot. I’m pretty happy to get all in with the BB.

I don’t think that the SB has much of a hand. He called with half the table in the pot in front of him. If he had anything we were worried about, he would have re-raised.

If we call, we might bring the SB in along with us, so I think I would stick in a small raise to encourage the SB to move along. This really depends on our read of the SB. I want to know that I can lay down my hand if he shoves and that I’m not that worried about him getting tricky and shoving over the top with a good gambling hand like JTs. If we raise and he shoves, the pot is going to be laying us a good price. I’m want to be in a position to give him credit for a better PP then we have. I don’t really want to get all in with the SB if he’s sitting on TT or JJ. Our smooth call, re-raise screams mid PP.

If the SB were capable of a move there, then I would probably dump the hand. I don’t want to play a $1K pot with 55.

OK,
Without the small blind this is an obvious call……do we all agree? Your getting nearly about 2-1 and against his range you only need to fear higher pocket pairs to be behind.

The small blind complicates things obviously. I feel allot of times people in this situation give big telegraphs as to whether or not their gonna fold. The problem is that if you call, then the small blind is getting nearly 3-1 to call. If you smooth call though, you stand a chance to flop a set and stack the SB, but are the implied odds really there? Probably not. I feel a re-raise here to about 180 would do the trick (getting the SB to fold)……..then again if the SB calls you may soil the chair. If you are pretty sure his body language is showing a fold, you can probably just call it and he will fold.

Another interesting thing i’ve seen allot of times in live cash games is a “check down”…..which doesn’t make much sense in a live cash game. However, even if the SB calls he may be willing to just check down to “eliminate” the other player. And of course with a board full of overcards, u’d be happy to do just that.

So i think the answer is “it depends!”…..where have we heard that one before? = )

Fold.

I’m not in the hero’s shoes, but it looks to me like the overcall was designed to fish for his set. (and it probably looks like that to the other players at the table, as well). That’s one reason I hate overcalling low pockets. So don’t lose the thread. Now you’re not fishing for your set any more :).

The short stack may be aggressive, but I’m giving him enough credit to expect at least one call from a pot this size that already has four people in it. So he’s not bluffing. That means he’s got you owned, or coin-flip. Still, I’d make the call heads-up because his range of hands is wide, and I’m getting nice odds.

But with the small blind behind it’s an easy fold. If you call here, he’s getting great odds with any decent hand to call as well. Now you’re three way with 55. (probably 20%- 40% to win)

A lot of people would probably reraise, but I think it’s a bad decision here. If I was in the small blind I would be waiting for this. If you had raised up the first time, a reraise would almost surely get you heads-up vs the big blind but overcall - raising is weak and easy to read.

Macro:

Anyway, I waxed eloquent unnecessarily, probably. Fold. Fold like superman on laundry day.

I forgot to add that this is a nice example of Ed’s macro principles vs micro principles. Micro poker would suggest a call or even reraise perhaps, but macro poker would say don’t play big pots with small hands. (and it also would say don’t overcall with low pockets i think

John,

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A lot of people would probably reraise, but I think it’s a bad decision here. If I was in the small blind I would be waiting for this.
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I agree that if I had any doubt about the SB I would fold here. I also don’t think it’s a bad play to fold just on general principal even if you had a pretty good read on the SB. My thinking here, though, is that if he’s truly a straight forward and not very creative as specified, then he likely will only get involved in the hand if he has us beat and for a fairly small additional investment we can figure that out. Our hand range is fairly transparent there, probably something like 44-TT. But so is his. I don’t think a straightforward player is going to move in without something at the top end of that range. I don’t know that he wants to play a monster pot with us with the hand he called with the first time around. Agree/disagree?

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and it also would say don’t overcall with low pockets i think
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You play in a different 1-2 game than I play in. Very rarely are you punished for overcalling with small PPs. There just aren’t that many players at the level I play at who will stick in a 3-bet squeeze all that often. Sort of the reason why you really don’t see people overcall with QQ+ very often. There just aren’t enough people who are going to re-raise light to allow you to get another bet in and really build up the pot pre-flop. That’s been my experience anyway. Yours may be different.

I come up with $160 in the pot, not $190. If it was heads up I would call instantly. With some players the jovial remark would make me suspicous of it being an encouragement for me to gamble, like , “Hey, I’m just having fun gambling, come on in the water is fine” sitting on a big pair. But the descripiton of this guy sounds like he is just being himself, having fun and genuinely ready to gamble.

The small blind, of course, is a worry. You ARE getting squeezed here. Depends what typical means here. I find 2 types of typical in these games. I’m scared and ready to bail if it gets heavy and I’m suspicous and I’m not folding here, ever.

I would check left, typical he probably will telegraph if he’s going to fold. If believe he is, like I said, i’m calling heads-up in a heartbeat. If not, or if no signal, I have to stop and think. Whether he flops a better hand or not, 5’s will be hard to play without flopping a set. If you flop a set and big bets scare him, you are probably not getting the odds to go for a set.

If you can’t push him out, then you have no steal equity after the flop. If you can’t steal, he could outflop you , and the all-in bb could outflop you as well, and you are risking a steal into a dry pot if you are already beat.

I think calling is worst scenario here, raise if you think sb will dump or fold if you think he will get aggressive. I would sadly lean toward a fold here unless I was relatively certain sb was going to fold.

Having position I guess a call would be ok , again, if you thougt you could push him out after the flop. If he makes a move first, then you have a tough decision to make. If you call the 70 I feel you are committing to the hand.

I don’t feel good about commiting with pocket 5’s here. If the small blind stays in and calls you are getting a little over 3-1 on your money. If both players have any pair or any broadway your hand is 2-1 dog –but that’s if it goes all the way to the river. If not, you are worse off, and 3-1 is on your call, not your entire stack. This is probably weak tight, but unless very sure sb is folding or he is weak, I fold this. Again, =( ly

Unless my table image is exceedingly loose, I am raising the size of the pot (although pushing isn’t too bad either) to squeeze out the small blind and get heads up. Given that he’s described as an unimaginative player, the automatic play with any premium pair against so many opponents would have been to reraise them out.

The big blind is pushing “some frequency” so I’m assuming he’d do this with the top 10% of hands. The pot is laying me ~ 2.25 to 1, against his range my odds are 1.4 to 1. Even if he’s sticking to only AA-99 and AQ/AK (which can’t be right) I still get the right odds.

I think calling is a clear mistake. Your two calls are advertising your hand as “good but not great” and giving big odds for the small blind to come in. Even a dolt might put two and two together, push all in, and force you to fold… the small blind could do that with any conceivable hand strong enough to make the initial call and still be correct.

- HJ

I wrote a response, but it didn’t appear to submit, and when I tried to submit it again, it says I already said that… Sry for cluttering the discussion, but I have the response on my clipboard, how should I proceed?

thanks.

We’re getting a nice overlay if we can play this pot heads up.

I would definitely put in a pot-sized raise to try to eliminate the SB.

Rereading the above posts as well, I think the commentary is missing here the implications your raise has on the small blind. A call like this from a mediocre player in the small blind is a very strong tell for a medium strength hand. Any raise on your part creates a side pot between the two of you. Unless the small blind has a real powerhouse (and you can be pretty sure he doesn’t), with two players showing strength for the main pot he has to consider he has minimal equity there. Furthermore the side pot only gives him even odds, and with all his likely holdings he has to reason he’d be making a mistake to come in there as well.

Of course, if he could reason all that out he’d probably be more than an unimaginative player, but he’s then also likely to take the overused maxim “3rd raise is always Aces or Kings” and drop out of the hand in any case.

Similarly side pot action is why simply calling is bad for you as the small blind either pushes here or on the flop, forces you out and plays for all that dead money. Whoever raises first between you and the small blind places the other in a bad spot where the other can’t stay in the hand…

- HJ

Todd, I think I would agree with you if there were only two people in the pot. But the fact that the BB is already all in is working against us.

I’ve already said I think we are a coin-flip or worse against the BB head’s up. I could be wrong, maybe he’s cold bluffing or has a pocket pair even lower than us, but I’m putting him on 9,10s - AA (After all, the fact that he’s too aggressive doesn’t mean he can’t hit a great hand now and again). That is a huge range of hands, against which we are hoping for a coin flip. 70/260 justifies a call here if we are heads up, but when I call it I’m expecting to lose at least half the time.

I do like your idea of buying info about the small blind’s hand for a small investment, but I don’t think this is the hand for it. I haven’t put him on a hand, but I doubt seriously he has anything better than maybe 10Js, and more likely is looking down at Q9. However, he could also have 88-1010. What kind of investment will it take to get him to fold his hand, knowing that we’ll have to fold if he pushes?

I’m thinking the lowest possible raise is something like 100. Now he’s looking at 100/250. Since he’s unimaginative, we’ll assume his action will represent his hand and He’ll only call or reraise with hands that have us dominated.

Now I pretty much agree with all the points made about betting, especially being better than calling, and I think the small blind would likely fold here. But if we push out the SB, we still lose against the BB about half the time, unless I’m wrong about my read on him. We’re trying to outplay the SB for a chance to hopefully coin-flip vs the BB. I’d lay it down.

I could definitely be wrong, and I respect the points others have made about raising. Perhaps I’m giving the other players in the hand too much credit.

It just seems low percentage to get involved here to me.

Push (or reraise) to isolate. The SB will almost certainly fold and you have decent equity against BB’s range. Even if BB has you killed and you lose $84, it’s a good “image builder” to have people see you moving money with small pairs.

5’s aren’t great. They are good, but I generally don’t like my chances here. Something seems fishy. Especially with the jovial comment. I’d fold.

Although Steve’s comment about letting people see you moving money around with small pairs has value too.

Thanks very much, Ed. I was worried I messed up, then I got very worried that I was going to triple post somehow! I appreciate your taking the time to help out.

This hand brings up an interesting point that I was thinking about. tbh, I’ve never liked small pairs and I felt like my play improved when I stopped playing them as often. Six months ago, I would have moved in at least pot-size in this situation in a heart-beat, but now I tend to consider this a “small hand” and it feels like an easy fold.

That said, I’ve learned a lot from this site, and one thing I notice is that Ed here and there refers to these small pairs as being premium hands.

Since this situation involves such a hand, maybe it’s a good chance to improve my play in this area.

Thanks everyone for your comments.
j

I do think that those who recommend folding in this spot are being quite pessimistic in their estimates of the BB’s range of possible holdings. It’s quite plausible that the BB is making this play with *any* ace, even A2 - A5, or any two Broadway cards, or even suited connectors down to T9s.

So I reiterate my preference for a re-raise in an attempt to isolate the BB.

From my perspective, T9s is a great hand to gamble with in the position that BB is in, whereas if he did that with A2, or A5… to me that would just be unbelievably poor play that I would not expect.

How much would you raise to get the SB to fold? Do you agree with my above statement that 100 is pretty much the minimum raise here?

I disagree that it is “unbelievably poor play” for the BB to shove with that range of holdings (eg. very weak aces). That being said, I *do* advocate that Hero should re-raise to isolate, and I do agree the re-raise has to be substantial to force out the SB.

Agree with the others about sticking in a decent reraise to get it heads up with BB. As an added benefit, many players at the table won’t figure out what you’re doing, but will notice that you 3 bet to $200 with 55, and think you’re a maniac.

In a tourney, against a good SB, I’d worry about him realizing what I was doing and 4-betting me all-in. But in a typical 1/2 NL live game, the odds of this are virtually nil.

I might just call if I thought I could significantly outplay the SB after the flop. Remember, you don’t need odds to flop a set since that assumes SB has a halfway decent hand.

I think it comes down to the BB’s range. The thing is, even if he is raising a wide range I wouldn’t want to give him a range much wider than 22+/AT+/KJ+. Is he likely to be doing this with some SC’s? I wouldn’t be too worried about the SB and you are getting great odds on your call so I think it’s a push.

I love the site and the philosophy behind it, i’d like to be a poker jedi in the future.

My opinion (its only mine, but i think its interesting and I like to brainstorm hands situations off the table): The BB is a tourist, he would have set us up a big pair bomb only if he didnt lost so much money (300$) overall “playing” at this table. I kick a lot of maniacs like that out of freerolls by just raising ALL IN with small pairs!

Just, folding the big stack is the problem. you will only fold him by going all out and possibly bleeding all your stack on this -speculative- hand. IF your image is favorable, the BB is a fish, and the big stack will fold if he puts us on a big pair, go for it, bleed your stack.

I wasnt playing on this table but most of times at my table I am the agressor… This is the only way to dominate a table, but sometimes you have to step back and watch. I would behave this way:

first of all I am pretty sure the big stack has a premium hand ONLY, not AKS, not a big pair. I see him holding something like QJs or ATS. The only thing I desire now is to find a way to fold him!

I CANT PUSH ALL IN AND PRAY.

NEITHER CAN I RAISE IN A REASONABLE HOPE TO FOLD THE GUY BEHIND…

So I’d be a gentleman, fold and try to corner the fish later again and again and again in the same coinflip situation when nobody else display strength preflop.

if only the BB reloads…

so… reload and try again, the sooner the better, BB

mmmmh Thought about this last choice after reading all comments: the guy raising preflop and initiating all the mess is the problem but can be the solution! just call the BB ALL IN… Just call will make the SB fold. If I was in his shoes with not so premium hand and overcards not connected, I’d refuse to see the flop for more of my money in a three way pot! I’d wait 4-5 calls to have fun out of my flopped top pair… this is the best solution I thought about? what about you?

One problem is the meaning of unimaginative. I didn’t read this as stupid, just not creative in making an unusual play. Unless he’s stupid, I can’t see him putting you on much of a hand when you just called after a raise of 7.5xbb and 2 callers.

How imaginative would he have to be to call expecting the bb to go all in,and if bb doesn’t, he gets first play at the pot. Even if he was making a mistake calling a reraise here, 55 just seems shaky to put your stack at risk.

I’m thinking pretty read dependent on this play. Even if this put all 3 of you all in I think it would be roughly a break-even play considering ranges, maybe a tad better. But there is still a good bit of money behind.

I suspect I am off base here, that is why these postings are so helpful. I am anxious to see Ed’s interpetation of the situation.

Hi John. Thanks for the note.

I think a fold here is very reasonable, especially if you don’t like losing the $90 1/2 the time or more. This is certainly going to happen if we isolate the BB.

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That is a huge range of hands, against which we are hoping for a coin flip.
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I don’t actually think we’re looking for a coin flip, though we are probably pretty close. Against any pair any broadway, we have almost 50% equity. We may well be a bit worse than that, but not too much. We’re being laid a great price so we can get in as a 65/35 dog and still show a profit. There’s really no range the villain can reasonably have that is worse than that. If the villain is only shoving with JJ+, AK we have about 35% equity and will show a profit over time and I just don’t believe that our villain is that tight given the overlay he is being offered. Personally, I don’t mind gambling in situations like that. But, certainly, don’t feel compelled to give action there. It’s not one of those slam dunk, super profitable situations.

Back to the BB. There was a post on 2+2 a while back by Sklansky about a situation where you have 22 on the button, Kathy Liebert in the SB and a short stack in the BB. It was a tournament and no one was super deep. Our situation isn’t quite the same, but I think there are many aspects taht are similar. You were happy to flip coins with the BB, but Kathy had about the same size stack as you and you didn’t want to be all in with her. The thread went back and forth with all sorts of ideas from just folding to calling to shoving. There were a bunch of comments about being worried that Kathy was going to fiercely defend her blind and that by not shoving or folding you were letting he outplay you, etc, etc, etc. At the end of the day, Sklansky’s opinion was that you raise enough to indicate to the SB that you have a real hand and that unless you have a big hand, this is my pot. He had an actual $ value, but that is roughly my interpretation. I think we’re in a similar spot here minus the fold equity for the BB, but plus a very nice overlay. The SB just isn’t going to play with us without a real hand. We can be all sorts of clever because we know our hand, but from all indications the SB just doesn’t have much of a hand. We can lay claim to the pot and for the most part expect the SB to give it up. If he doesn’t give it up 90% of the time he has us crushed.

I like re-raising to isolate if i’m going to be , however, I think folding is also a good option. How much “long term money/equity” are we giving up by folding?….probably not a huge amount. I could be wrong, but based on my idea of the SB’s range and the BB’s ranges, we probably are not giving up much long term profit by folding. I would definitely say there is a great chance the BB has 66-99. Against to overcards we are about 50/50. If its too close to call, then lean to folding and wait for a better opportunity.

i meant to say in the first sentence “if i’m going to be gutsy”….’gutsy’ is the missing word there = )

I think it’s definitely not as clear cut as I was thinking! If only I had $1 for every time I said that. @@.

about the coin-flip, I just meant that as far as I could guess, best case scenario to actually win the pot against the BB is

Now the math version of my opinion ;)

there is 159 dollars in the pot. I’m given 2.3 to one if I just call the raise. Is this is enough to fold the SB? I’ll win less if I reraise. But I will have more chances to win If I fold the SB. I lose 40% of time so I cannot accept odds lower than 1.60 to one??? we judge our patsy on a weak head up hand, he lost big and says something funny before pushing. If I only I could be given the chance to reraise a pot endlessly till the end of my poker career, (less than 95 dollars and more than SB’s pain threshold) I’d be more than a long term winner, its a huge pot… and its only a tourist.

please feel free to correct my errors… What do YOU think?

Just a quick thought. I’m thinking its pretty obvious and everyone seems to agree that calling is out. But what if you and the SB each had 1000 stacks……. would a call be correct?

[...] couple of days ago, I posted a hand I “observed” where our hero had 55 after a small preflop push in a big pot. I was the player with the 55, and first I’ll tell you what [...]