…snip…
The more I think about this I more I like calling the flop.
…snip…

You like this for pot control? I think there might be some merit to that. What is your plan if a scare card drops and the villain keeps betting? Is there a time when you’re giving up the hand. Are you calling a few bets because they are relatively cheap?

I personally think you have to raise on the flop. If I smooth call in that spot, I feel like I just don’t know what I’m dealing with and find myself in the position of having to call down a couple of bets because the hand just might be good.

If you stick in a solid pot sized raise and you get a call, your hand goes down in value a lot. When he leads when the scare card drops, you have to think your hand is no good most of the time. You probably only spent as much as a call on the turn with the flop raise, but I think you make the hand a lot easier to play on the turn and river. So, my preference is to find out early.

Agree, disagree, thougts?”

Todd,

I essentially like it for pot control. It was mentioned earlier that there just isn’t a lot that is going to get AI here that you are ahead of. I don’t think this is to the point where we want to commit without reads. We want to play a medium sized pot but not a big one. This means that a call will lead us in that route.

It sounds like you are talking about raising for information. I don’t think that is a good reason to raise here. You should know that you are mostly ahead here but what does a call really mean. He could be on a draw or he could be on a set. Do you really feel that comfortable folding when he bets into you on the turn?

I think you last paragraph says a lot too especially the part where if you are called your hand goes down in value. You are saying that as the pot gets larger that your hand goes down in value. In that case why go for a big pot by raising?

But going back to the main question.

#1 – MP led out with a bet on the flop out of position. (which is a sign of a strong hand)

#2 – When hero raised to 9BB on the flop, MP called out of position (which in itself is another sign of some strength)

#3 – And finally, on the turn MP led out again with a pot sized bet (another sign of more strenght)

The table is tight per Hero’s description. MP has given 3 clear indications of his strength… calling simply with 2 pair on the turn in this situation is a recipe for disaster.

MP is tight, he’s not a maniac, and he’s firing away out of position. You are going up against a big hand here. I would fold on the turn. But you should have never been in this situation in the first place and played the flop differently.

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On the flop I would have flat called or raised more as I stated above. But preferably I would have raised more. You can’t be a nut and raise to the point of being all-in because then you gain limited information and are setting yourself up eventually for getting stacked by a set.

A larger raise gains informations, gets you fold equity, saves you money from just call-call-calling it down, and prevents you from getting set-stacked.

I think calling is the ‘safer’ play, in that you are keeping the pot small until you you feel you are the overwhelming favorite to take down the pot.

But raising the flop, the more aggressive play, is good too because you know where you stand and you can get away knowing that you were beat with greater certainty should you be behind.

I think calling is probably preferable when just getting started at the table and playing against an unknown.

…snip…
The more I think about this I more I like calling the flop.
…snip…

You like this for pot control? I think there might be some merit to that. What is your plan if a scare card drops and the villain keeps betting? Is there a time when you’re giving up the hand. Are you calling a few bets because they are relatively cheap?

I personally think you have to raise on the flop. If I smooth call in that spot, I feel like I just don’t know what I’m dealing with and find myself in the position of having to call down a couple of bets because the hand just might be good.

If you stick in a solid pot sized raise and you get a call, your hand goes down in value a lot. When he leads when the scare card drops, you have to think your hand is no good most of the time. You probably only spent as much as a call on the turn with the flop raise, but I think you make the hand a lot easier to play on the turn and river. So, my preference is to find out early.

Agree, disagree, thougts?

If hero calls 20BB on the turn then on the river he is almost pot committed unless another diamond shows up. And if you call the 20BB on the turn what do you expect to happen on the river? You are going to be back in the same situation and same predicament again!

If hero calls 20BB and is willing to go to the felt with 2 pair, when a plethora (I hope you guys like that word) of better hands are out there to crush him, then hero in the long run will be losing many hands he should have folded, and getting stacked unnecessarily.

The table is tight per hero’s description. MP is trying to chunk up your stack, and he’s doing a very good job of it. You will suffer if you call.

However, the people (like Donkstar) who are saying to just call the flop are making allot of sense to me. I think its definitely either a “huge raise or call” situation on the flop raise.

I myself still like pushing more on the flop, but i admit the people who advocating keeping the pot smaller (just calling) make allot of sense to me. However, i still tend towards pushing because i think you would usually be giving up an edge with the best hand (even if it is relatively small).

On a side note, i just picked up “Prof. NL Hold ‘em” today and am twitching to leave work so I can start reading it!

I think this may be the key of this entire situation. How the hand was played preflop has been subject to discussion, but limping vs raising is not where the situation went bad for the hero, in all likelihood. If the hero is playing his best game, he is mixing his moves, so he can probably acceptably do either on the flop. I think I would raise slightly more than 50% of the time, but I digress.

I do feel that the 9 BB raise on the flop is wrong. My first post commented that a bigger raise would be appropriate, and be more likley to chase away the drawing hands. Thats one approach, and will take the pot against holdings like top pair, and some draws. It will not take the pot against a set, or a combo draw like Jh9h, and may very easily end up facing a re-raise.

Calling the flop bet seems like a very reasonable option. Your hand is good, not great, and can still improve. They best of all worlds is if it improves in such a way that also hits your opponents draw (like 8d). After a call, the pot is now 11 BB, and the turn pressure is likely to be much less that the 20BB he fired after calling your raise, probably on the line of 10 BB, allowing you to at least consider drawing to the FH.

The fact that you played “weakly” or “let him get there” seem inconsequencial. Big hands for big pots, small hands for small pots…with that kind of combo drawing board, top two pair is too often a small hand.