Hand Discussion #7: Flopped Top Two Against Turn Pressure

Pre-flop: Fine, you have position and a good drawing hand.

Flop: I’d probably have raised a bit more with all the possible draws, make it a pot-sized raise. With top 2-pair I wouldn’t worry that much about a set. If he has a set against my top 2 on the flop, I’m going broke.

Turn:
I’m folding here. I find it hard to see a TAG player value-betting a worse hand like this. A one-pair hand is going to want to keep the pot small (and also probably a low two-pair hand). So our only real chance is that he’s bluffing the turn. What are the chances of him being on a bluff? Slim, I think. When he called our raise on the flop, he had something - a made hand or a draw. Two of the big draws got there
(the flush draw and J9). There’s not many hands left that he could have that he’d now be bluffing with. 97 is the only one I can really think of. Even then it’s an unlikely bluff. If someone is going to play their missed draw that aggressively, they would be more likely to 3-bet us on the flop.

The MP’s turn lead bet smells of either a set protecting his hand or a bluff to represent the flush. I suspect it’s the former and he’s got a set of 3’s or 8’s.

I call in this spot and see if you can make a boat on the river.

No actually thinking about it some more and reading the other post I agree, not many hands you are ahead of here. Possibly Ace 10 with A diamonds or K 10 but calling a raise then betting the turn is strong.

You don’t have the pot odds to chase your 5 outer. I fold.

4 outer even

Preflop: I don’t see any issues with limping with T8s with other limpers.

Flop: Assuming that the TAG is a decent enough player to consider that a flop raise by the hero represents a strong hand (note: I don’t have any information about how the hero is viewed by the players at the table, what hands he has played, what stack he started with, what stack the TAG has, I’m just thinking aloud here - wrong or right), the villain had to consider the bet by the hero that he has a big hand (two pair or better) and what his odds (implied and otherwise) are to make his flush (or a better hand).

Therefore, I would play the hand as the hero did on the flop to protect my two pair and the villain could improve. However, if he has a larger stack than me (more than twice of mine), then I’m still in trouble.

The turn bet by the villain has me concerned as now I could be beat by a higher two pair, a flush, a straight - my two pair is no good and I fold.

I don’t know if the villain has bluffed before so I don’t put him on one.

Cross posted from the message board…

I’ll give it a shot. I am about halfway through PNL so let’s see how much these new concepts help me!

This is a pretty ugly thing right now. You are having to make a decision for the rest of your stack and the way he played his hand make me think of sets and flush draws. Since the stack at the beginning of the turn is 4x the pot you are at the commitment threshold. He makes life hard on you when he bets here, crossing that threshold. This means that you need to have a plan to commit with your hand. Since that flush draw just completed and a TAG just bet into you OOP it is hard to know whether you will be good here very often if you end up AI.

Giving him a range… I think he may have the nut flush, two pair with a hand like QTs, a pair plus the nut FD with AdT, or a set. You aren’t really way ahead of any of his range and you are way behind quite a bit of it, especially if you get AI. I think you have to fold. Wow, that seems weak.

I also would like to point you that I think you should raise more on the flop. When that flop comes you should be thinking that you want a bit pot so you should make a bigger raise. I would think a PSR to 14BB would be good.

I think part of the problem here is that you started off with a hand that is fine with a high stack to pot ratio, and kind of fell into a vulnerable hand on a drawy board that would prefer a much lower SPR.

Even though you can’t achieve that, you’re still ok, since the SPR is so extremely high that you don’t have to be committed to putting all your money in - unless the pot grows a lot more.

How about just calling the flop? Raising sets you up for a difficult decision as there are a lot of scary cards that can come on the turn. If you just call the pot will only be 11 BB, and you can decide to fold from there without feeling like you’re abandoning a huge pot. If a safe card comes and he bets into you, you can make a big raise from there which a drawing hand won;t profitably be able to call with only one card to come.

fwiw, I would put him on J9(maybe maybe QT) no diamonds. He wants to know if his str8 is good. He doesnt think you have the flush, but doesnt want to lose to a diamond on the river. AI now to represent the flush, he has put in as much as his is willing to here and with no draws, MUST fold. LOL.
$20 is just too stiff a bet for a TAG to make here $$10-$15 would have me more worried.

Limping the soooted one-gapper is ok, if the table dynamic implies the blinds are unlikely to raise behind you.

However, in doing so you must understand that you are looking for the flop to offer flushes or, preferably, straights. Two pair when holding sooted connectors or one-gappers is a mediocre hand at best.

Accordingly, I call the BB’s bet to keep my involvement small (corresponding with my small holding) and fold to any raise behind me.

I fold to the bet on the horrible turn card.

I never posted on here before, and I recently got into no-limit…..so I will give it a crack. Most of the advice people are giving sounds pretty good to me. I myself think THE problem was offering him too high implied odds on the flop. You have much more behind to justify him calling to draw to a straight and a flush. As far as your play on the turn, I think its tough and depends on the player. Most players I would either call or push all-in (if they were playing a bit nutty). His bet-out seems sort of fishy to me…..alot of more inexperienced players will go for a check raise (not realizing that the flush card will make you check). Also its a decent sized bet…..and seems like he wants a fold from you. I would feel it out and probably call him if i felt he wanted a fold.

Your flop raise was not enough. You can’t fear a set in this situation unless you have a good read from playing against this guy previously.

I myself feel this is one of the biggest mistake live NL players make. Even if a flop bet is the SIZE OF THE POT, it still might not be enough because you may be giving someone great IMPLIED ODDS to call. Guessing at the implied odds is another story, but many pot sized flop bets justify calling with a flush draw….especially if the pot is small compared to the stack sizes.

In most situations against most players, you got the best hand yet and its time to push.

Limping pf is fine. With this many opponents and at these stakes it may be hard to steal, so you may not want to raise pf and set up a ~13 SPR.

On the flop you have a decent-but-not-great two pair hand on a drawy board. With a lot of money behind (~18 SPR right now), you probably don’t want to commit yet. I think calling the flop bet and hoping for a safe turn card is best. If the turn is a brick, you can start value-betting.

I may be in the minority, but I am not crazy about limping with a suited 1-gapper, even with position. Its OK, but, I think an advangtage would be gained by raising there around 5BB. It would tell you much more about your opponents holdings relative to your own, and you will still have position.

On the flop, I agree that the raise was a little light, and somthing like 10-12BB at that point would be more telling. At that point you would have to assume that only sets and combo draws would be smartly calling along. Once that bet is called, and BOTH the flush and straight draw hit in the turn, every one of the drawing possibilities, AND the set beats your hand, drawing to 4 more outs. The pot odds are not even close to make calling reasonable.

I would ask what is known about this opponent, and whether the big bluff is in his bag of tricks, but without any further informations, you are only beating a bluff, and must fold the turn.

I think this hand plays better if you raise pre-flop. I don’t think limping is awful, but raising gives you a lot more leverage going forward.

First, looking at this from the .02/.04 perspective, the MP may have top pair on the flop and no flush draw. With top 2, I am not particularly afraid of the turn and would get it all in without too much regret as long as I am properly bankrolled. Honestly, this guy could have Ad8x, AdTx, AdQx or a variety of other hands that I beat. I’m never calling, always raising. I would expect to stack off once in a while, but even at .10/.25 you see some pretty weak hands get all in on dangerous boards. Top 2 on the fop is generally ahead of the range of betting hands there and I would expect, over time, to come out ahead. I’ve found the really small micro limits will call big bets very light and that it is generally profitable to charge ahead with hands that beat top pair under most circumstances. The variance is (was) high, but over time was winning play.

At a higher limit, say 1-2, I raise a little more on the flop. On the turn, I may smooth call, but would probably fold. I really don’t have that much in the pot yet. Two draws just came in. He may have been ahead already with a set. If I thought the villain got out of line a lot, I may smooth call and fold to a significant bet on the river. If I thought the villain was really getting out of line, I would move in as a sort of value-bluff. I would really need a good read for that, though.

Did the villain hesitate to call your raise on the flop ? If not, he was drawing for the flush because this is a kind of an automatic call.
If he did hesitate, he certainly has QT or Q8.

How about raising to 25BB on the flop? It cuts off odds for drawing, but what hands still want to play then?

I think I would have only called the flop keeping the pot as small as possible to make an aggressive play on a safe looking turn card (the Qd not qualifying).

I would call the turn. If he moves in on the river, fold. Few players at those levels will double barrel bluff.

It seems to me that hero didn’t have an overall plan at the start of the hand. First limping on the flop, then a medium-ish bet on the flop. Now you have a problem, there is a fair amount of money invested but not really enough to be commited. So what do you do now?

When limping PF hero should have a plan based upon table dynamics. Are we going to commit if we hit anything good? Are we going to commit only if we flop a flush or a straight or multiple draws?

On a tight table, I’d be inclined to check/fold on the flop (or on the turn if there were no bets on the flop). On a looser table I would be in favor of commiting on the flop, and making a bigger raise. Playing this hand “on the fence” is what got you into trouble.

Thoughts? Yeah, I don’t really like playing 2 pair with deeper stacks either! ;)

I’ve never played micro-limit cash, so I’m just going to have to assume that the game is like what I’m used to.

Pre-flop, I think the limp is fine, just as long as you know that the blinds aren’t making a regular habit of raising perceived weakness as a sort of squeeze. I don’t know about raising… yeah, if you get called, you know where you stand… behind.

On the flop, you said you raised to cut off draws, but you didn’t raise enough to cut off MP. After your raise, there will be 17BB in the pot, and it’s 6BB for him to call… he’s pretty much going to call that unless he was completely bluffing. That said, I’m not sure how worried you are about shutting down draws… I mean the majority of the time, you’re not going to see a diamond on the turn. I raise a little more here, 12-15 BB.

The turn is ugly time. Normally I would say that’s a pretty big bet for a made flush… but if he’s going to stack, that’s the kind of pace he’s going to need to set. I think there are quite a few hands here that you beat - the strong turn bet could also be someone who is scared of the potential flush on board. In this situation, I’d probably let the time run out on me, get up from the table, and go play Wii. ‘Cuz that’s the kind of TAG I am. ;)

I think your flop raise got you in this debacle. I think you did just the right thing to put all the pressure on you.

For me there are two options. Either trying to keep the pot small. Whether he was bluffing or holding a set, the pressure would all be on him if you called the flop. That might give you a free card on the turn. Or, if he bets the turn, you call again and you put more pressure (the pot would have been approx 10BB so that is the amount you would roughly have to call if he makes a pot-sized bet).

Option 2 is to raise by an amount large enough that will give you the information you need to know about his hand. A large raise may make him fold his flush draw but not if he is holding a set. This move will still entitle my opponent to make a play at me, possibly but not likely moving in with rags, forcing me to fold possibly the best hand, so I guess I prefer option 1.

As played, you definitely have some equity in this pot.

In my experience, an out of position player who hits his draw on the turn will not usually make a big bet.

I think it is unlikely that he has a set here as he would probably have played it faster on the flop with all of those possible draws out. Also, he has to hate that turn card if he does have a set, so betting out makes no sense.

If he has J9 and has made a straight then he isnt as tight and aggressive as previously thought. Could he really limp with J9 here? The same reasoning goes for Q10. Also, with Q10 the turn lead-out bet makes little sense.

A-10 with the Ace of diamonds fits the bill here. The only other hand that makes sense is the nut flush, betting out big (unconventionally) hoping to get full value from the hand. Here though, it would have been a good spot to move in on the flop with that hand.

I think you are about 50-50 to have the best hand here and need to get to showdown as cheaply as possible.

Probably the best way to achieve that is to raise, either min-raise or slightly more. That way, you are representing the flush and this is consitent with the way you have played the rest of the hand.

If he re-raises you’re beaten and cant call with 4-outs. Its likely that he will call and check to you on the river unless he has the flush.

Andrew,

I think you are thinking a lot. And that’s because our hero put you (and himself) in that position by betting the wrong amount on the flop.

What I actually think is that you have to plan your hand (in this case on the flop), so you can avoid all this thinking later, which ultimately still leaves you in high seas…

Hi Zot,

…snip…
Pre-flop, I think the limp is fine, just as long as you know that the blinds aren’t making a regular habit of raising perceived weakness as a sort of squeeze. I don’t know about raising… yeah, if you get called, you know where you stand… behind.
…snip…

I don’t know 100% that we’re behind if we raise and get called pre-flop. Even if we are, it’s often to hands like 22-88, J9, Axs. Those hands have an awful hard time continuing if the flop comes KQx. If we were’nt in the cutoff or on the button, I don’t think we could raise with this hand. But, especially on the button, I think this hand plays better with a preflop raise. We can make a much more substantial bluff or value bet on the flop and that is really to our advantage.

…snip…
Pre-flop, I think the limp is fine, just as long as you know that the blinds aren’t making a regular habit of raising perceived weakness as a sort of squeeze. I don’t know about raising… yeah, if you get called, you know where you stand… behind.
…snip…

Sure, your T8s may be “behind”, but your bet doesn’t say that to a limper. The caller has decided he wants to play the hand for a raise out of position. I feel Todd is on target in that it could easily be a small pair, a bare A, or similar medium holdings. The flop has to hit them very solidly to continue. Make your opponent make the mistakes, put them on the tougher decisions.

As far the level of the game goes, Micro-NL plays darned close to a free-roll, and you see some crazy thing happen, and crazy plays made. It does not, however, mean that the hero should join in the madness. Bet size may get tweaked as the level of the game changes, and the potential skill of your opponent increases, but the same priciples apply.

Hi folks,

thanks for all the interesting feedback!

In case you are interested I want to share my thoughts with you, too.

The more I think about this hand the more I am inclined NOT to play this kind of hand at all… (at least not for pair/2 pair value)

Let’s start at the FLOP (pot was 5BB; I have 89BB; villain bets 3BB into me).
Situation: The pot is small and a lot of cards (28 out of 47 = 60%) complete a draw (6, 7, 9, J, Q, 4 more diamonds if villain holds 2 diamonds).
What goals could I have now?

GOAL 1. Protect the pot: I don’t think that risking my 89BB to protect the 5+3=8BB pot is worth it. The pot would have to be bigger (and/or my stack smaller). The only ways this could occur are by:
a) a bigger flop bet (>20BB) from villain, but that looks like protection for a flopped set so I’d rather FOLD.
b) building a bigger pot preflop. But then I would have to raise it to >10BB, leaving me with 80BB and a 21BB pot. The only hands that call a 10BB preflop raise have me beaten every time I do NOT flop 2 pair (which will be MOST of the time). This is NOT an option (except as a steal, but then we are NOT talking about a 2 pair hand anymore).
Protecting the pot doesn’t seem like an appropriate goal! But I draw the conclusion that any raise preflop wouldn’t have helped.

GOAL 2. Protect my stack: This could be accomplished by either calling down or throwing in a raise planning to check the next street hoping to get checked to. The cheapest development I regard as probable is this:
Flop (5BB): 3BB bet/call
Turn: (11BB): a) 6BB bet/call or b) 6BB bet, raise to 12BB, call
River (23BB or 35BB): a) 12BB bet/call or b) check/check
Final pot: 47BB or 35BB (my money after flop: 21BB or 15BB)
So when I am faced with the 3BB flop bet I must be willing to invest at least 15BB (but >= 21BB is more likely) to win an 5BB pot plus following bets. Thus I must win at least 46% of the hands to be EV+ (46%*(15+3)-54%*15).
Hmmmmm! Will my hand be good that often? Unless MP is a notorious bluffer or very aggro with one pair I probably don’t win often enough IF he keeps firing at me.
If I want to protect my stack it looks like I’d better fold right away and don’t invest any more of my chips.

GOAL 3. Extract the most from villain: Well, after evaluating goals 1 & 2 I’m not sure that there’s much value to extract consistently. I could raise for value, but as you can see in my original example it gets me into a very difficult situation if I get called and a scare card falls (remember: there are 28 = 60% scare cards for the turn card!)
So raising for value is out of the question.

Conclusion: Flopping 2 pair is a tricky situation if there are 2 to a flush on the board. If you play connectors/1-gappers then there’s an additional threat for straight draws.
Limping preflop appears to be optimal, because increasing the pot will not help. Keep the pot small until the turn card is out. Then it’s more clear where you stand.
I still regard playing suited connectors/1-gappers as a good option in this situation (on the button, unraised pot, 2 limpers, raise from the blinds unlikely). But the plan must be to go for the draws (straight/flush)!

Just my 2 cents!

…snip…
As far the level of the game goes, Micro-NL plays darned close to a free-roll, and you see some crazy thing happen, and crazy plays made. It does not, however, mean that the hero should join in the madness. Bet size may get tweaked as the level of the game changes, and the potential skill of your opponent increases, but the same priciples apply.
…snip…

I agree that you don’t want to join the madness. I think, though, that you want to use different range estimates than you would at a higher level. I just wouldn’t get all my money in with that hand and expect to be ahead very often at 1-2. At .02-.04, I think the hand is probably in the top half of the range. Call it 60th percentile and I would expect to get paid off by quite a few weaker hands still.

I haven’t played close to that limit in quite a while, so I may be a bit overly optimistic. I do think it’s reasonably close, though.

I would raise pot-size on flop due to the very drawy board. You’re definitely ahead most of the time on this flop but there are many cards that could come that will have you in a tough spot as is the case.

On these kinds of flops where your likely ahead but can be easily outdrawn or bluffed if scary cards come it is a good idea to make a solid stance on the flop and that will at the very least make your later decisions easier.

As played, since he could have easily been drawing and since you really cannot put him on a flop-made hand since he didn’t call a large enough raise that he probably wouldn’t make on a draw I think you need to let this go.

Him betting into you on the turn is a bit fishy as usually he can expect you to bet out in which case he can c/r or slowplay the nuts, and you would probably fold a hand other than at least the straight. Which means this may be a good place for him to bluff but I think you need a strong read on opponent to give him credit for this kind of a play.

…snip…
Him betting into you on the turn is a bit fishy as usually he can expect you to bet out in which case he can c/r or slowplay the nuts, and you would probably fold a hand other than at least the straight. Which means this may be a good place for him to bluff but I think you need a strong read on opponent to give him credit for this kind of a play.
…snip…

If I were the villain and I just made a draw, I’m betting here every time unless I’m sitting on Ad. The hero’s bet might just be a continuation sort of bet representing an overpair. I don’t think the hero needs to have a hand to raise on the flop. It’s a pretty scary board. If the hero does have a hand, I don’t want to rely on the hero to bet with a hand like AT, JT, T9 or even JJ which are hands that would have re-popped you on the flop. I am certainly betting if I have J9. I think there are a lot of times where the hero could check behind on the turn if he holds a diamond and that is a bad spot for a turned straight. If I have a baby flush, I also have a hand that it is in my interest to protect. Plus, if I am the villain, I need to do some pot building if the hero is willing to play with me. I don’t want to rely on the hero’s turn bet to do that. Plus, a bet sets up the pot for a bluff shove.

I raise of fold here preflop. We want to build a pot with a drawing hand like this.

There is an error in the text. You limp and then raise to 9, so you are left with $80, not $75 on the turn…

Normally, as played, I fold the turn. This is a set or a flush too often.

I guess you want to hear we should have build a bigger pot to commit ourselves? This would have happened if we had raised preflop:

Preflop: We raise to 6BB (two limpers) and get one caller.
Flop (13.5): He bets 10. We raise 30 he calls.
Now we are left with 44 in a 73.5 pot and we are clearly going allin.

You have the best hand on the flop. Two tens and two eights are out, so pocket tens or eights for your opponent are very unlikely. If he has pocket threes, so be it. The VAST majority of the time, here, you have the best hand on the flop, so be confident about that.

16 to 6, or 2 2/3 to 1 are poor enough odds to give him, I guess, but I would raise more, like 5 or 6x his bet on the flop. I want him to either fold and give me the pot, or pay dearly to draw. I’m taking a risk, and I wanna be paid for it. Remember, you have the best hand, and unless he has multiple draws, it will hold up the majority of the time.

If I raised big and the queen of diamonds came out and he bet big, I’d probably fold unless I thought he was bluffing.

Greyzy,
Thanks for posting this very interesting hand and thanks to Ed for selecting it!

However, I disagree with you and agree more with bunchodrunx thinking. You say using your 89BB stack to “protect” the 8BB pot is not worth it……..but the pot size actually is going to take a back seat to the fact that 1) you have the best hand right now and 2) you could double up if you move all in and he calls on a draw. He may hit his draw, but if you could have this situation 1000 times a day you could probably quit your job with ease. (unless u’re job is already playing cards?).

I am fairly new to NL, so i’m in no real position to give any advice you can take to the bank. I also only play occasionally. But i have to admit that i believe a good reason why i’m slightly ahead at 1/2 NL in AC (insead of being behind) is because players constantly give great odds(implied or pot) to draw to flushes and open-ended straights……maybe even trashier draws. In other words, players fail to protect their current best hand. You see this in almost EVERY limit hand played, btw. And as i play more and get better at guessing implied odds of certain people (as different players give different implied odds), i see more and more that most people don’t bet enough to protect a nicely flopped hand.

I’m anxiously awaiting the noted poker authority’s comments! Thanks again for posting this great thought-provoking hand!

Todd, DonkStar,

I was kinda flip in my dismissal of raising here. Especially if you are confident that you can out-play people out of position, it’s a reasonable way to play the hand. And in this particular case, your hand will be well disguised. Personally, I guess I just play tighter.

1. PREFLOP. It’d a bit opponent-specific but I’d probably prefer a raise here. However, the overlimp is not terrible.

2. FLOP
I don’t really like your line here, and much prefer a flat call. You have a fine hand but it’s very hard to see him stacking off with a worse one here, unless you think he’ll overplay AT. The worse two pairs (T3 and 83) are especially unlikely.

3. TURN
This is a genuinely tough spot and I’d swing different ways against different opponents. Against your opponent as described (and bearing in mind it’s a 2c/4c table) I’d flat call this. He could be on a total bluff or have AQ, in which case he may well shut down on the river. Even if he does have a flush or set or just made a straight with J9 we have four outs (the two remaining tens and two remaining eights) to a full house that will probably claim his entire stack.

bunchodrunx,

I thought about what you wrote, but I got even more confused. Please respond!

…snip…
The VAST majority of the time, here, you have the best hand on the flop, so be confident about that.

16 to 6, or 2 2/3 to 1 are poor enough odds to give him, I guess, but I would raise more, like 5 or 6x his bet on the flop. I want him to either fold and give me the pot, or pay dearly to draw. I’m taking a risk, and I wanna be paid for it. Remember, you have the best hand, and unless he has multiple draws, it will hold up the majority of the time.

If I raised big and the queen of diamonds came out and he bet big, I’d probably fold unless I thought he was bluffing.
…snip…

Hmmmm, when he bets into me you’d raise to 6x his bet (6×3=18). That would leave me with a 71BB stack. If he calls he gets 26-to-15, meaning he would have to win 15/(26+15)=36% of the hands. That’s just above the odds of a 9-outer (flush) or an 8-outer (straight) over BOTH streets, meaning MP could NOT call profitably for pot odds (even if he was all-in then).
The IMPLIED odds would be 97-to-15 (he would have to win 14% of the times). He makes his draw between 18%-20% of the times (depending on the draw). If he could count on getting me all-in it would be profitable to call the turn raise.

Guys, what is the right way to look at these odds??? Is it OK to call this raise with a nut-flush draw or not? Pot odds say “NO”; implied odds say “YES (if all-in is likely)”.
Or phrasing this in another way: does this raise protect me against draws???

If villain calls the flop raise and I go all-in on the turn I would lay 71-to-41, meaning that villain would need to win 37% of the times (this would be a VERY bad call if he would still be on a draw). But on the other hand my all-in would make his flop call profitable!!! And I would not know what kind of draw he was on since there are
28 out of 47 = 60% scare cards that can come on the turn!!!

So what do I do if a scare card comes and he checks? I certainly don’t want to give a free card. The pot is 41BB and I have 71BB left. I would have to bet 1/3 pot (14BB) to cut his odds below 4:1 (9 outs). This leaves me with 57BB. If he then raises to 71BB I will be getting 112-to-57 (2-to-1). I guess that makes me pot committed, right?
So, if a scare card comes he will get me all-in if his draw came in. But that would make his flop call profitable, right???
If that is so, my flop raise to 18BB would NOT protect me against a draw, right?

Now you got me confused. Should I really raise to 18BB or not???

I love this smiley but it ruins my math…

it should read: 6 x 3BB = 18BB

I’m only near the end of Chapter 4 of PNL.

Preflop I think is fine.

On the flop, I would commit, and raise on the order of 15-20BB, to make him pay if he’s drawing. If he calls, and then Qd hits on the Turn, I’m not paying him off by sticking in a lot more money.

You have 2 pair on the flop, a good hand but not a great hand. You didn’t play the flop correctly in my opinion. You need to fold when that Q diamonds comes. He may have a set, two pair (that he may have caught on the turn) or a flush, overall I think you are doomed. He knows you have the initiative and like your cards, so he is taking the opportunity to punish you for that. Especially betting into you on the turn is super dangerous, if he didn’t have the flush, then he might have put you on a flush draw on the flop when you raised like that in position.

You should have played the flop in one of the following ways:

Option #1 - smooth call him on the flop to keep the pot small, and if he hits his flush then so be it, but the betting won’t be so inflated and you will be able to call it down cheap compared to this sticky situation on the flop you created for yourself.. You escalated the stakes with a “good” not great hand… now you are suffering for it

Option #2 - Your raise on the flop to 9BB is too small. You have a good not a great hand and you have only one chance to take it down on the flop. I would have raised to like 12BB.

In general on the flop with top pair best kicker or two pair with possible flush draw you only have one chance to take it down on the flop. Blast that barrell try to take it down, if you get stiff resistance you are screwed.

You should have smooth called his bet on the flop or raised more in my opinion.

I agree with previous poster that smooth calling the flop is also an equally acceptable option given the small size of the pot. You can make your move on the turn if a blank hits. If scary card comes you can let it go cheaply.

The more I think about this I more I like calling the flop.

I will admit that I thought that initially but I have this psychological thing where think not raising two-pair is “weak” so therefore it is a raise. It is really stupid thing and something I am trying to get over.

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The more I think about this I more I like calling the flop.
…snip

I think this may be the key of this entire situation. How the hand was played preflop has been subject to discussion, but limping vs raising is not where the situation went bad for the hero, in all likelihood. If the hero is playing his best game, he is mixing his moves, so he can probably acceptably do either on the flop. I think I would raise slightly more than 50% of the time, but I digress.

I do feel that the 9 BB raise on the flop is wrong. My first post commented that a bigger raise would be appropriate, and be more likley to chase away the drawing hands. Thats one approach, and will take the pot against holdings like top pair, and some draws. It will not take the pot against a set, or a combo draw like Jh9h, and may very easily end up facing a re-raise.

Calling the flop bet seems like a very reasonable option. Your hand is good, not great, and can still improve. They best of all worlds is if it improves in such a way that also hits your opponents draw (like 8d). After a call, the pot is now 11 BB, and the turn pressure is likely to be much less that the 20BB he fired after calling your raise, probably on the line of 10 BB, allowing you to at least consider drawing to the FH.

The fact that you played “weakly” or “let him get there” seem inconsequencial. Big hands for big pots, small hands for small pots…with that kind of combo drawing board, top two pair is too often a small hand.

I was/am a big proponent of making a big (even huge) raise on the flop to commit most of your stack (if not all). The reason being you probably have the best hand PLUS fold equity.

However, the people (like Donkstar) who are saying to just call the flop are making allot of sense to me. I think its definitely either a “huge raise or call” situation on the flop raise.

I myself still like pushing more on the flop, but i admit the people who advocating keeping the pot smaller (just calling) make allot of sense to me. However, i still tend towards pushing because i think you would usually be giving up an edge with the best hand (even if it is relatively small).

On a side note, i just picked up “Prof. NL Hold ‘em” today and am twitching to leave work so I can start reading it!

I agree with the DonkStar… rock on my brother.

If hero calls 20BB on the turn then on the river he is almost pot committed unless another diamond shows up. And if you call the 20BB on the turn what do you expect to happen on the river? You are going to be back in the same situation and same predicament again!

If hero calls 20BB and is willing to go to the felt with 2 pair, when a plethora (I hope you guys like that word) of better hands are out there to crush him, then hero in the long run will be losing many hands he should have folded, and getting stacked unnecessarily.

The table is tight per hero’s description. MP is trying to chunk up your stack, and he’s doing a very good job of it. You will suffer if you call.

jdk - I have 2 of Ed’s books on order… Friday afternoon at work here, I’m ready to bounce and as TeddyKGB would say: “Let’s play some cards…” Itchin to get Ed’s books ;)

Hi Threads,

…snip…
The more I think about this I more I like calling the flop.
…snip…

You like this for pot control? I think there might be some merit to that. What is your plan if a scare card drops and the villain keeps betting? Is there a time when you’re giving up the hand. Are you calling a few bets because they are relatively cheap?

I personally think you have to raise on the flop. If I smooth call in that spot, I feel like I just don’t know what I’m dealing with and find myself in the position of having to call down a couple of bets because the hand just might be good.

If you stick in a solid pot sized raise and you get a call, your hand goes down in value a lot. When he leads when the scare card drops, you have to think your hand is no good most of the time. You probably only spent as much as a call on the turn with the flop raise, but I think you make the hand a lot easier to play on the turn and river. So, my preference is to find out early.

Agree, disagree, thougts?

I think both calling and raising have merit. If you smooth call and he bets a scare card on the turn at least half the pot then fold. You haven’t lost much. If he leads a blank I would raise pot-size and commit.

I think calling is the ’safer’ play, in that you are keeping the pot small until you you feel you are the overwhelming favorite to take down the pot.

But raising the flop, the more aggressive play, is good too because you know where you stand and you can get away knowing that you were beat with greater certainty should you be behind.

I think calling is probably preferable when just getting started at the table and playing against an unknown.

I think we all agree that hero should have played the flop differently.

But going back to the main question.

#1 - MP led out with a bet on the flop out of position. (which is a sign of a strong hand)

#2 - When hero raised to 9BB on the flop, MP called out of position (which in itself is another sign of some strength)

#3 - And finally, on the turn MP led out again with a pot sized bet (another sign of more strenght)

The table is tight per Hero’s description. MP has given 3 clear indications of his strength… calling simply with 2 pair on the turn in this situation is a recipe for disaster.

MP is tight, he’s not a maniac, and he’s firing away out of position. You are going up against a big hand here. I would fold on the turn. But you should have never been in this situation in the first place and played the flop differently.

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On the flop I would have flat called or raised more as I stated above. But preferably I would have raised more. You can’t be a nut and raise to the point of being all-in because then you gain limited information and are setting yourself up eventually for getting stacked by a set.

A larger raise gains informations, gets you fold equity, saves you money from just call-call-calling it down, and prevents you from getting set-stacked.

“Hi Threads,

…snip…
The more I think about this I more I like calling the flop.
…snip…

You like this for pot control? I think there might be some merit to that. What is your plan if a scare card drops and the villain keeps betting? Is there a time when you’re giving up the hand. Are you calling a few bets because they are relatively cheap?

I personally think you have to raise on the flop. If I smooth call in that spot, I feel like I just don’t know what I’m dealing with and find myself in the position of having to call down a couple of bets because the hand just might be good.

If you stick in a solid pot sized raise and you get a call, your hand goes down in value a lot. When he leads when the scare card drops, you have to think your hand is no good most of the time. You probably only spent as much as a call on the turn with the flop raise, but I think you make the hand a lot easier to play on the turn and river. So, my preference is to find out early.

Agree, disagree, thougts?”

Todd,

I essentially like it for pot control. It was mentioned earlier that there just isn’t a lot that is going to get AI here that you are ahead of. I don’t think this is to the point where we want to commit without reads. We want to play a medium sized pot but not a big one. This means that a call will lead us in that route.

It sounds like you are talking about raising for information. I don’t think that is a good reason to raise here. You should know that you are mostly ahead here but what does a call really mean. He could be on a draw or he could be on a set. Do you really feel that comfortable folding when he bets into you on the turn?

I think you last paragraph says a lot too especially the part where if you are called your hand goes down in value. You are saying that as the pot gets larger that your hand goes down in value. In that case why go for a big pot by raising?

I think the turn is a pretty standard fold until we establish that villain certainly bluffs here with a wide range of hands. This looks like value-betting the made flush so that we do not have a chance to check behind the turn. The only hand we’re really hoping for is AT with the nut flush draw.

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