Hand Discussion #6: Out of Position Ace-King Against a Reraise

There should be ~$170 in the pot when it gets back to you and it cost you $55 to call. The raiser has about $250 behind and the limp/caller has about $275. Since the raiser is a bit loose, although I can’t assume he is 3-betting loose, it is more likely that he has some worse hands instead of his range being JJ+/AK.

You have position on both of the players, but with a raise to 15x with effective stacks of ~80x you certainly are not getting good enough implied odds to call.

I think folding is a reasonable option if you believe that this players 3-bet means QQ+.

I think if you are going to play the hand then a reraise all-in is probably the best play. If you push you are betting ~$225 more into a $170 pot. You will probably only get 1 caller and in that case you will 75$ of dead money in the pot. The only hands you are worried about are the 3-bettor having AA and KK and I think that isn’t a big enough part of his raise to let that stop you. AK is 50/50 to a lower PP and is in great shape against a worse A.

Personally, I’m more concerned by the early position limper. What hand could he be holding to limp/call two raises with?

He doesn’t have implied odds to set mine or speculate with suited connectors. If he is holding a big Ace then I would expect him either to push or fold.

The only hands I can see him calling with here are Aces or possibly Kings and he is calling to entice you along or hope you are frisky enough to push over the top.

I need a read on the early position limper, but if he is a solid player I think I can fold this and wait for a better spot.

Sid,

I am not too worried about the limper since he probably doesn’t have too big of a hand. Since Ed specified that this is a loose game I don’t think we have any reason to put him on something that we are worried about.

*grunch*

I’d fold. Here are my thoughts:

1. What could EP hold?
EP has invested only 5$ so far. Why should he invest 70$ more? He gets 10/7 immediate odds (possibly 16/7 if NPA calls). Since he doesn’t know if NPA will push right away he must be willing to call even that. Due to the odds this doesn’t look like a drawing hand or a small pocket pair to me, especially since NPA or button could have a medium or high pocket pair.
With QQ to TT he probably would have pushed now to drive out holdings like AK and by that either win the pot right away, have more outs or at least have a higher reward in case he gets called. Once the flop is out he would have a hard time deciding what to do if an A or K were out and he held QQ for example.
To me it looks like that he WANTS you both to stay in the pot. Why does he thing for a while (besides being possibly some kind of disguise)? He wonders if he should call or raise (not call or fold!) and then figures he wants you both in.
My conclusion is that he holds AA or KK or AK (he could put you both on smaller pairs or AQ and less).

2. OK, now that I have a range for EP, what shall we do about the button? From what you say, he could easily have a hand that you dominate. Without EP in the hand this is a call or even all-in. But since EP is in the hand NPA’s chance of winning is significantly lower. If EP wins and button is all-in there’s only 25$ to be won from button (if EP wins the main pot). Not much of a reward!
Even though NPA gets about 3:1 I think the chances of winning here are less than 25%, because you are likely to need a flush or straight to win (with a pair/two pair you might still be behind).

Therefore I’d fold and kiss the 4 BB goodbye.

Push.
34bb in the pot
Button has 50bb left.
limper does not have a big hand – prob a medium Pocket pair and has 45 bb left.

Effectively your playing with 75 bb I think you need to look for reasons to fold AKs here.

The more aggressive you’ve been playing the better an all in is here.

In order to decide this we need to know a bit more about the EP limper. What are his tendacies etc….

Ok I am going to make a couple of assumptions. I believe the player in EP is a poor player with a medium hand. You are probably wondering why I think that.

In early position a general concept is to enter a pot you should have a strong hand. Usually with a strong hand you need to raise it up and since you are OOP for the whole betting rounds raising pre flop gets more money in when you are ahead.

Ok but the villian UTG just called. This could mean 2 things… he actually is a good player maybe wnting to trap some with AA KK or he is a bad player wanting to see a flop with a medium strength hand OOP.

Ok we make a standard raise and it gets raised from the button who makes it a 3bet. A loose aggressive player will 3 bet with a wide variety of hands. A range we can probably beat.

Now the EP limper called again. Ok 2 things make me think he has a medium holding now. A good player with a strong hand like AA will not want to just call against 2 opponents especially OOP. it is more difficult to play on the flop and there is enough money in the pot to limp reraise and take the pot down.

With AK here you should push all-in and try and take the pot. If called the only hand you are scared of is AA, which can be a possibility. If he has AA he has made a good play.

I would probably not fold in these circumstances, with the premise that neither player involved has AKs dominated with AA or KK. That leaves two options:

1) call to see a flop and re-evaluate where we are;

2) 4-bet pre-flop.

Given that you’re facing a potential squeeze on the flop if you miss, I might actually prefer the latter option slightly.

I tend to think the early position limper doesn’t have much. He had two chances to raise, and he didn’t. I put him on a medium pair.

I don’t like calling here, planning to check-fold unimproved. For one thing, you will end up folding 2/3 of the time. If you do hit, your implied odds are poor. People will get away from their hands if an ace or king flops and they can’t beat you. And you will stack off if they can beat your TPTK.

Calling while planning to push any flop seems inferior to just pushing now. Why let your opponents see the flop in that case?

I think it is best to just push. If you put the button on as tight a range as QQ+,AK then it is essentially a wash (as compared to folding). If you allow any weaker hands in, like JJ or, best of all, AQ, then it is EV+ to push.

This is all assuming that the limper is going to fold. If there is really a substantial chance that he is slow-playing aces or kings, that would change things.

EGJ,

I agree totally with point you make about calling offering very little in the way of implied odds.

I forgot to mention this in my point.

Folding is like so incredibly weak.

The only question is whats better, calling or pushing all-in. Let ignore the option of a 4bet thats not all-in.

Lets first examine a push. Say there is a chance of F that they fold. And a chance 1-F that someone calls with the corresponding winning chance W (of ours). So the push EV would be

EVpush = F*$170 + (1-F)*(2W-1)*$310

Its pretty obvious that it’s positive, unless F is really low and W really high whats not going to be the case here. (Its a loose game, and even in a tight one F is bigger 20% and W is 40%)

So now it get more interesting. What happens when we call. Ofc when we hit the flop we get it in, and when we dont we fold.

If we hit an A/K we lose our stack to better hands (AA/KK, sets, weird 2 pair).

While we lose our stack if behind, we cant really be sure if we win a stack if ahead. they might have QQ and TT and might fold once the ace appears.

So that, from a preflop perspective, might be seen as a bad reverse implied pot odds situation. We lose a lot when behind, but win (relativly to our loss) little.

Ofc we could also win a stack vs KK or AQ on an A-high flop, that why a call is still +EV.

But on average calling is inferior to pushing.

I can’t believe anyone would fold here, barring an ironclad read that someone has AA or KK here.

It would help to know something about your current image or the flow of the game to more accurately define what hands the button would 3-bet you with here after you pop a limper.

You characterize him as “fairly loose” but don’t say anything about how passive/aggressive he is.

Your dream scenario is you pushing and everyone folding (highly unlikely given the action though). There is a possibility the button perceived your 4x raise as an isolation attempt on the limper and is restealing, but that’s probably not likely with these shallow stacks and the fact that it’s a B&M $2/$5 game.

Your 2nd best scenario is cramming in and having the button call you with 99+,AJs+,AQo+ and having the limp/cold-caller fold.

Your 3rd best scenario is having the button call with 99+,AJs+,AQo+ and the limp/cold-caller calls with something like 88-33,AJs-ATs,KQs,AJo.

Even if you cram and the button will only call you with AA-JJ or AK, but the limper will fold, your expectation is still 1.6BBs.

If the button has that tight of a range for 3-bet/Calling, and the limper has the 88-33,AJs-ATs,KQs,AJo range, then your play becomes –EV if you get it all in three ways.

Helps to know your opponents obviously.

From experience, I would probably just cram in b/c of the dead money and the fact that the limper will often be pretty weak (medium pocket pair or a semi-strong broadway hand maybe) and will fold some percent of the time. I would do this especially if I had a read that the button was more aggressive than normal or was on tilt, thus meaning my hand could be good.

Admittedly those would be really bad folds on both the button and the limp/cold callers part if you shove.

Whatever hand the button 3-bets with he should be willing to call a shove getting ~ 1.9-to-1 here (for instance , any pair is good and AQs is good too).

The limp/cold-caller will be getting 3.1-to-one to call my jam and the buttons call all-in, so he should probably call with all pairs and all suited connectors of maximum stretch.

His limp/cold-call is like especially hideous though and a fold is even more hideous if he has a pocket pair after this action. He would have invested a quarter of his stack preflop only to fold.

looks like a possible steal to me … but he’d still have to have something to reraise. I’d probably let a card come off at this point and just call

AK is a hand where you want to see all 5 cards, so I think folding is out. The action is behind you, and you will have a pot sized bet behind. You really want to see all five cards if you play. So it’s fold or all-in.

Whether or not we want to be all-in depends on our reads of the table. The limper smooth called. That could mean a lot of things. He could be limping a big pair, but I don’t really think so with the smooth call. With AA or KK, I think he’d be looking to get heads up pre-flop and probably all-in. In the sort of game I play, I would put him on a pocket pair 22-JJ or so. I also wouldn’t rely on him folding all the hands he should. For the guy behind us, is he a loose caller or a loose raiser. If he’s a loose caller, I’d give him a range like AK, QQ+. If he were a loose raiser, I’d widen his range up to AQ+, TT+.

If we shove and they both call we have around 30% equity in a 1K pot, right around break even. If we get one loosish call that includes AQ we have about 50% equity in a $700 pot. So the question is, how many loose calls are we going to get. When we get loose calls from both players, it kills our equity. If we can rely on 1 or more folds, then we are probably going to get the right money on our bet. If we can’t then we should fold. So, if this is a loosish 2/5 game, we should probably let it go. If it is a weakish 2/5 game we should ship it in and be reasy to rebuy.

I agree with SidMaynard when he said: “Personally, I’m more concerned by the early position limper. What hand could he be holding to limp/call two raises with?”

This is how I see it.
Pushing all in – Bad move
Calling – Correct
Folding is ok, its safe but not the best move

Everyone here seems to be getting caught up on the fact that this is a “fairly loose” game. Don’t forget, loose players get delt good hands too. If a loose player limps and then calls a preflop raise, no big deal, but when he calls a raise and a re-raise for 25% of his stack with the initial raiser still left to act he is not being “loose”. I don’t think he is calling off 25% of his chips with anything less than AA or KK (KK less likely) especially because there is still a player left to act and he probably wants to see an all-in push.

The button probably does not have as strong of a hand as the limper. That doesn’t matter. Even if he has AQ you are still a huge dog to the limper, so an all in push will still get called, and you will find yourself needing to suck-out.

I may be wrong about which one of these guys actually has the strength, but rest assured 1 of them is holding a monster.

Lets say they are you get “lucky” and the players are holding JJ and QQ you are a 60% dog against 2 players and at best a coin flip heads up. Why risk $300 on a hand knowing you are at best a slight underdog. There aren’t many hands that the limper and the button can make those bets with where you would be a favorite going in. With that information DO NOT PUSH ALL IN WITH A DRAWING HAND!!

You know you need to catch up. This is why I like just calling the bet. Nobody can raise the betting after your call and you get to see a flop. You can figure if you are holding AdKd you will need to hit a flush or strait to win this hand (TPTK probably no good).

Given that assumption, you are about 7.5 to 1 to flop at least a flush draw. After you call there will be $225 in the pot and most likely with effective stacks of $225 and $250 one of the 2 other players (if not both) will push all-in post flop giving you minimum implied odds of about 8 to 1. In addition, if you do flop a flush draw, now you are 2 to 1 to call 1 all in bet and 3 to 1 if they both go all-in which would make your call at that point mathematically correct. If you miss the flop completely you fold and lose $75 but you still have a large portion of your stack in front of you.

Coming back to the one of the most important considerations, stack size – any raise is practically AI, your not looking for implied odds. Your hand is a powerhouse pre-flop hand, EP could have anything, you don’t mention his tendencies (his delay calling the raise is a sign of weakness – he was probably set mining now he hopes you fold – maybe he doesn’t know what to do!!!). The button could be squeezing and his range is wide. This is a perfect resqueeze. All-in possibly isolates you against EP, has huge fold equity and is a damn good hand against both their ranges. The only thing against AI is variance. Fold if your roll can’t take the hit.

My final question is this. If you were going to slow play AK pre-flop, and the squeeze comes, when were you going to stick it AI? How good a hand do you need in this spot?

Cheers.

PS. In terms of ranges and tendencies I think this is germaine, “This weekend I was playing in a fairly loose $2-$5 live no-limit game”. Some of the ranges being put forward are way too tight. I can’t believe how passive some of the responses have been.

PPS. I’ll join up in future when I post.

roachy.

PPPS. Oh, and you don’t have to worry about being out of position against a decent player either, the other great factor after stack size, as far as I am concerned.

roachy.

…snip…
The button could be squeezing and his range is wide. This is a perfect resqueeze.
…snip…

The thing is, this isn’t really a classic squeeze where you smooth call a raise and get raised behind. If you did smooth call a raise and get squeezed, then I agree, that was exactly what you were looking for. There would be more dead money in the pot and the buttons range would probably be weaker.

As played, I think there is generally one pp and one Ax hand stealing your outs. Shoving is mildly profitable if you can get at least one fold fairly reliably. Otherwise, you’re really not getting much overlay and are likely flipping 2 or 3 ways.

EV of a fold = 0
EV of a call = “Shoving is mildly profitable” – fold equity =

EV of a fold = 0
EV of a call = “Shoving is mildly profitable”
- fold equity =

Having trouble posting.

EV of a fold = 0

EV of a call = Shoving is mildly profitable
- fold equity =

Having trouble posting.

EV of a shove = Shoving is mildly profitable

No, its not a squeeze, it a raise for value in late position, against two loose limpers. Makes even more sense to shove for value against a limp and a button raise. I think EP fears being trapped (he can mine against two players better than one), and the button has a wide range, if you shove the button’s got to be thinking about what EP will do and if the button calls your shove EP’s got a problem…. If the button folds, etc…

I was the less than operator, sorry about the mess folks.

missing line should read:

EV of a call = Shoving is mildly profitable
- fold equity – position = less than 0

Ha, I just realized I mis-read the original question. I should be working anyway. Apologies.

Does the EP player know the guy who raised the pot (i.e. NPA)? If the question to that answer is a yes, then it is a clear fold.

Why? Because knowing that he is playing against a tough player (are you not now, NPA?) EP knows that he has opened himself to a big re-raise. And yet, he this did not deter him from continuing in the game.

Why did he not raise then? Because he was afraid of losing both his clients. He knew that a third raise with NPA yet to act would give away his hand (pocket Aces).

So why did he limp with Aces from EP? Because he knows that the table is loose and he was hoping for someone to raise.

Maybe I am wrong with this thought process but I am not curious to find out. I would still be in high seas if I flop an ace or king, even ace-king or a flush draw. I am out of here and maybe the loose button would provide us with some entertainment, whom I would not exclude from having a big hand himself…

As is, I put the EP limper on a medium pair. I don’t think a “good player” is going to smooth call here with a big hand and this action in early position.

One of the earmarks of loose games I have been in is players calling for the “dream-flop” set without getting proper implied odds. Or over-calculating those odds, ie. if he flops a set here he will get both of your remaining stacks, that type of reasoning.

Button could have a wide range, but not as wide as some others have stated because you have pegged him as an “unremarkable” player. With a raise in front of him I think his unremarkable range is whittled down some. A weaker ace IS possible but I think not likely. AA or KK of course, but more unlikely because of your hand. I would strongly suspect QQ here.

But, against 2 hands, pre-flop equity against both having pairs is about 35% or so and against one underpair and even a weaker ace becomes like 37%. I know calling is usually considered weak, but I kind of like a call here versus all my money. If an A or K comes, I’m getting money in. If not, see how button reacts.

Then again, if you get all-in and they both call you are getting the odds (slightly) and if one folds you have enough overlay and actually are in better shape. You have written facing a raise and reraise fold all and shove with AA and KK. If that assessment is based on the chances that the reraiser has such a strong hand would that apply here even though you are the original raiser?

So the read of the unremakable player and possible odds here. Does unremakable mean he would automatically put you on a really strong hand or would he consider your ranges before reaising ? I don’t think there is any fold equity in going all in.

So I was ready to say shove , but now I am back to my weakish call response. Getting 3-1 on call and what are the odds of an A or K coming on flop if no one has one but you? If none comes you still have a weaker ace beat and can probably fold the medium pair but you are in bad position to be feeling that one out.

If “unremarkable” increases the chance of AA or KK enough to offset your having one of each ? or getting them all in you would do so with such a small edge you would be better off in a game like this to wait for a bigger edge. And if you call you close the action but are in terrible position after the flop. I change my answer again. I think it’s a fold even if I’m too weak to fold this myself.

I think the button has TT or JJ and Queens or Kings for the limper. If he had aces he would have put the button allin. I would fold and look for a better spot. You are in a squeeze position where you could lose all your chips. FOLD!

Not a NL player so not sure about my logic, but all-in seems like the play to me.

If you just call, you might be in a tough spot on the flop if the limper goes all-in. You’ll be getting decent odds to call even with some weak draws but have the button, who could have gotten lucky, behind you still to act. Having to fold would suck.

If you push before the flop, even though they’re getting good odds, one or both players still might fold, which would be great. If one or both players call, you won’t have to make any post-flop decisions and get to see all 5 cards.

Folding preflop doesn’t seem like an option as you likely have an equity advantage over your opponents’ range of hands.

hi Ron.
There are good spots +EV and Bad spots. Never pass up good spots…And erase the phrase “look for a better spot” from your repertoire.

If there wasn’t the caller in there I would say this is a much more clear fold.

To me it is clearly an all-in or fold decision.

As with other posters my biggest worry is that EP is slowplaying AA/KK. His actions so far lead can only lead either to this conclusion or that he is a fish making a real mess of playing a hand like 88-JJ or AQ/AJ. If I respect his game then I’m going to have to fold.

Without knowing anymore about his game and given that this is “a fairly loose $2-$5 live no-limit game” then it is likely that he’s a fish and things look much brighter.

Knowing that the reraiser is loose (presumably loose aggressive not loose passive?) then we’re happy to play the hand believing that his reraise range is wider than JJ+ and AK. So do we call or reraise all-in?

We started the hand 65BB deep against the button. If it was 100BB then I would call looking to flop TPTK and giving up if I missed. Reraising all-in would be a bit loose for my liking.

But 65BB starting stacks is an awkward size for calling. If we overcall the reraise and an A or K flops its going to reduce our chances of getting action off beaten hands like 88-JJ. If an A or K doesn’t flop we’re left with uncomfortable choices on the flop as the pot will be about $230 with a maximum of only $250 left to bet.

In my view, with these stack sizes it is far easier to remove the difficult decisions on the flop and just push.

I am so glad to see, there are so many people who think AK is worth risking $300 with a re-raise, and a smooth call in front of them in a situation where you are going in as a slight DOG AT BEST . How can you possibly think your AK is good at this point? You are all officially invited to my home game…

Push

I have mulled this hand over on and off today. I have been in a similar situation and pushed, but I’m not an accomplished NL player (yet).

If all 3 get the money in you put in 33% of the pot(slightly more cause of the 300 stack) and most likely have 36% equity. If one has AA or KK much less, and AK you are going for a split pot. 20 is already in so pot odds slightly better but it seems that would be offset by chance of one of the unfavorable hands being out against you.

Shorter stacks of course go all in. What if you had bigger stacks? At what point would it be correct to call here, if ever? I’m anxious to see your comments on this one Ed.

Easy push. Both players have only 60BB stacks–that alone is some evidence of donkitude. Nothing EP could have makes it correct to limp and then call a huge 3 bet–further evidence of donkitude. LP player could have a big hand–or not. Even if LP’s range is JJ+ and AK, you still have an incredible 43% equity–more than enough with the dead money in there. I doubt he’s that tight. If he’s even slightly loose, he might 3 bet with TT, 99, AQs, or who knows what. You want to see all five cards. A call leaves you OOP, without the initiative, and probably missing the flop in a huge pot. Add in your fold equity (huge + if you can get one of the two to fold, since you’re behind even the lowly 22 at this point), and this is a no-brainer. I would never fold in this situation, and call only if the stacks were much deeper.

What Nathan said!

Raise a bit.
I let someone else elaborate.

This is an interesting hand, but the replies are even more interesting.

What I learn from them is this: if I hold AA(KK) in EP and limp almost everybody will EXCLUDE these holdings from my range! That’s terrific to know!

Beware guys: just because someone does NOT make the “standard” move (i.e. raise with AA/KK preflop) doesn’t mean that:
a) he doesn’t have the hand you so easily exclude
b) it’s a BAD move (especially against you guys it has tremendous deceptive value)

Now, I am very anxious to read Ed’s thoughts, but knowing your answers I’d play it EXACTLY like EP did if I had AA/KK (no offense, guys).

Accusing players with 60BB stacks of being donkitude is a donkitudish arguement at best. Stack sizes do not determine the level of donkiness of a player. May I remind you (or perhaps draw your attention) that ED is the pioneer of a short stack strategy. So be very careful if he is at your table with 25BB in front of him before labeling him the King of Donks…

Here’s one way to approach the question of whether to push or not:

$177 in the pot for us to gain.
$292.5 left in our stack to be risked, on average (we’re risking $305 against one villain and $280 against the other and I’m assuming they both won’t call an all-in push from us).

Scenario #1: Villains will call an All-In from us if and only if they have AA.
In this case, our equity if called is 12.41%, which according to my calculations means that we need them to fold 53.93% of the time (i.e. we need both villains to not have AA 53.93% of the time) in order for it to be a 0EV play.
I think my calculations are right, based on the analysis at http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=10513205. Apologies if I have my sums wrong.
EV = EVfold + EVcall
0 = 177f + (1-f) [ .1241(292.5-75+177) + .8759(-292.5)]
0 = 177f – (1-f)(49.0-256.2)
0 = 177f – (-207.2) – f(-207.2)
0 = 177f + 207.2f – 207.2
0 = 384.2f – 207.2
207.2 = 384.2f
207.2/384.2 = f = 53.93.

Scenario #2: Villains will call an All-In from us if and only if they have KK+, and they won’t both have KK+.
In this case, our equity if called is 23.12%, which according to my calculations means that we need them to fold 43.03% of the time (i.e. we need both villains to not have KK+ 43.03% of the time) in order for this to be a =EV play.

Scenario #3: Villains will call an All-In from us if and only if they have QQ+, and they won’t both have QQ+.
In this case, our equity if called is 34.59%, which according to my calculations means that we need them to fold 23.66% of the time (i.e. we need both villains to not have QQ+ 23.66% of the time) in order for this to be a =EV play.

I play in games where I think Scenario #2 is closest to the truth, and although I’m a bit unsure I think I’d be expecting two folds more than 43.03% of the time. I’m not sure whether that would also be true in the live game from which this discussion is derived, because the games I play are relatively weak-tight. However, on balance I like pushing here.

I think it relatively unlikely that pocket pairs JJ or lower are going to call an all-in here unless they have a read that we’d only push with AK and not with QQ+.

My conclusion is that pushing is likely to be +EV in the games which I play. Obviously folding is =EV. I really don’t like the idea of calling here due to the fact that we’re out of position. If we have to call my plan would probably be to push the flop if we hit it in any way.

One somewhat dubious feature of my analysis is that I’ve excluded the possibility that both villains might have premium pairs and call, but this shouldn’t bother us excessively. It would indeed be unfortunate if the button had AA, but if that’s the case we actually want the early limper to then call with KK or whatever because it doesn’t cut down our equity much and puts a lot more money in the pot to compensate us in the unlikely event our flush hits.

By the way, I’m not sure I’d give the same answer if we had AKo – the unsuitedness really kills our equity when we’re up against AA or KK.

Sorry, I’ve just realized that I misread the question as saying that the villains had $300 and $325 left after the action . Unfortunately it doesn’t seem possible to delete comments but in my mind it would make the case for pushing even more clear-cut.

RESUMBIT: Mods please delete the previous version of this post if possible.

Here’s one way to approach the question of whether to push or not:

$177 in the pot for us to gain.
$217.5 left in our stack to be risked, on average (we’re risking $230 against one villain and $205 against the other and I’m assuming they both won’t call an all-in push from us).

Scenario #1: Villains will call an All-In from us if and only if they have AA.
In this case, our equity if called is 12.41%, which according to my calculations means that we need them to fold 46.01% of the time (i.e. we need both villains to not have AA 46.01% of the time) in order for it to be a 0EV play.
I think my calculations are right, based on the analysis at http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=10513205. Apologies if I have my sums wrong.
EV = EVfold + EVcall
0 = 177f + (1-f) [ .1241(217.5-75+177) + .8759(-217.5) ]
0 = 177f – (1-f)(39.65-190.51)
0 = 177f – (-150.86) – f(-150.86)
0 = 177f + 150.86f – 150.86
0 = 327.86f – 150.86
150.86 = 327.86f
150.86/327.86 = f = 46.01.

Scenario #2: Villains will call an All-In from us if and only if they have KK+, and they won’t both have KK+.
In this case, our equity if called is 23.12%, which according to my calculations means that we need them to fold 34.52% of the time (i.e. we need both villains to not have KK+ 34.52% of the time) in order for this to be a =EV play.

Scenario #3: Villains will call an All-In from us if and only if they have QQ+, and they won’t both have QQ+.
In this case, our equity if called is 34.59%, which according to my calculations means that we need them to fold 15.21% of the time (i.e. we need both villains to not have QQ+ 15.21% of the time) in order for this to be a =EV play.

I play in games where I think Scenario #2 is closest to the truth, and although I’m a bit unsure I think I’d be expecting two folds more than 34.52% of the time. I’m not sure whether that would also be true in the live game from which this discussion is derived, but I suspect it probably is. Therefore, I like pushing here.

I think it relatively unlikely that pocket pairs JJ or lower are going to call an all-in here unless they have a read that we’d only push with AK and not with QQ+.

My conclusion is that pushing is likely to be +EV in the games which I play. Obviously folding is =EV. I really don’t like the idea of calling here due to the fact that we’re out of position. If we have to call my plan would probably be to push the flop if we hit it in any way.

One somewhat dubious feature of my analysis is that I’ve excluded the possibility that both villains might both have premium pairs and call, but this shouldn’t bother us excessively. It would indeed be unfortunate if the button had AA, but if that’s the case we actually want the early limper to then call with KK or whatever because it doesn’t cut down our equity much and puts a lot more money in the pot to compensate us in the unlikely event our flush hits.

By the way, I’m not sure I’d give the same answer if we had AKo – the unsuitedness really kills our equity when we’re up against AA or KK.

Heh, actually I’m now starting to think that the first one was actually correct! Clearly, I’m a n00b when it comes to such things. Can anyone clarify whether the first one was done correctly?

Gamble!! Gamble!! Gamble!!

Poker players are Gamblers….

If you sit an think too much about the hand you will out guess yourself.

Make the all in move. Make your opponent think, force him to fold and take the pot there and then. Put the decision making back to him. If he holds a monster hand like AA or KK. Then make hime show you. Dont be afriad to get your money in there. Every hand is different even though you may encounter the same scenario again. I bet you will win most days.

For me this problem is all about stack sizes. With effective stacks of around 60BB and plenty of dead money already in the pot this looks like a clear push to me.

Ed has stated that the table is “fairly loose.” Although that doesn’t tell us much, I think we have to assume there is a better chance than average that the villains do not hold great strength. The button probably has at least a reasonable hand, but with fold equity and the money already in the pot the push looks very favourable. All we are worried about here is AA and KK but surely a “fairly loose” player will 3 bet with a bigger range than that.

As for the EP limper. He has had 2 chances to raise and each time declined. I really don’t give him much credit at all for a hand. Either villain could turn over AA/KK but good players don’t always fear the worse. Push with confidence.

Of course, with deeper stacks this is a completely different decision. Folding, calling or raising could be correct depending on the table. But with 60BB and a hand that is only crushed by one holding the decision is easy.

Anton–I said the stacks were evidence, not proof. Ed’s shortstack strategy really only works well online, when you can jump up and move tables once you get too deep. And 60 BB is a little too big to be short stacked, but not a full buy-in. Most good players who play deep keep a full buy-in. It just strikes me as an amount someone would have if he bought in full, gradually lost some of it, but isn’t planning on reloading until he gets really shallow or busts.

FTR–I push even against good players here, unless they’re total nits who only 3-bet AA. The donk factor just increases your chances of getting called with AQ-AT.

Egads, I expected an unaminous vote for push. I guess it’s good he posted this question.

I’m surprised that so many people are afraid that the EP player has AA or KK. Since hero has AK, that’s less likely. Also, his actions aren’t any more indicative of AA/KK than they are of other hands in his range (medium pp, suited broadway cards, decent aces).

If we don’t weight AA/KK more heavily than the other hands, we have ~40% equity (as Nathan pointed out), so folding is not an option.

I’m not “afraid” of either of these players, except that they might call too much. To me, that is the real dilema. There’s really not that much dead money in there. If you get 1 caller, you’re putting in ~$300 for a $725 pot. You need ~40% equity to break even. You really need the caller to have AQ in his range and not have the limper call with 66 for this to show a profit if you can’t rely on getting 2 folds once in a while. The danger is far more from the loose callers than the tight ones. Tight ones give you fold equity, loose ones suck the life out of you in this case.

AK is a highly over-rated hand. And you are out of position… to me this is a no-brainer immediate fold. You have to look at it this way… your AK is not nearly worth as much when you are in such a bad position.

If you call the pot is going to be 75×3. Which probably is equal to your stack.

If you don’t hit your ace on the flop you are screwed. If you hit your king on the flop, and bet, and the button goes all in then you are right back where you started before the flop.

By calling AK pre-flop here you are basically setting your self up to go all in… probably on the flop… so I say fold.

if you don’t hit your ace on the flop you are screwed, and if you hit your king there is no guarantee you are going to win. AND you only have 1 out of 3 to hit A or K on the flop…

NO BRAINER FOLD.

Todd,

If you get just one caller, your equity is higher. I estimate (using PokerStove) at least 55%, though it depends on which player calls and what you think his range is.

Follow up to my last comment… I say you only have 2 moves, all-in or fold.

Personally I would fold. You have nothing yet… nothing, you don’t even have a pair. Going back to his original principal you want a big pot for a big hand… and you must play tight!

You don’t have a big hand yet, you have nothing, why commit $300 for such a risk? When the others may have AA or KK.

Calling is not an option, either All-in or fold. I would fold, be patient, wait until I get a good hand which flops a great hand, and then build my monster pot where risking my chips is worth the pot size.

AK is worth nothing until you see some cards. I’ve seen way too many people crash and burn with AK… FOLD!

By the way Ed… great site! Gives me something to do on the side while at work! Keep up the great work.

I’ve been playing 1-2 NL for about 6 years, you have verbalized some aspects of my play which I never thought about!

I’d rather have 22 over AK any day!!!

Hi uDevel,

The 43% number was from another poster above with a range of AK, JJ+. I’m just saying that if that is your range, then the dead money in the pot is just enough for break even with that caller. What sort of range are you putting him on that gives you 57%? When I look at {AQ+, 99+} it still is a 50/50 proposition. Do you think you will get a caller with more Ax hands or am I calculating something wrong?

I really don’t see all that many situations where you won’t get at least one caller, so you’re 1 caller equity probably isn’t a bad proxy for the whole problem. If you get 2 callers, any reasonable mix (say {AQ+,99+} for both) gives you ~33% equity in the whole pot. Still around break even.

So, it seems to me that all of the profit from the hand is coming from fold equity. At a loose table, I honestly don’t know that I see too many situations where both players fold. So I think if you shove, you’ll make a couple of bucks, but nothing to write home about. You’ll stack off quite a bit. If you’re not that fond of stacking off, you probably shouldn’t be shoving here.

Todd,

I didn’t realize that Nathan’s 43% number represented equity against one tight caller. Sorry.

Even so, Using that number, when the action comes to you, the pot is already $170 and if you go all-in and get one caller, you risk at most $250 for a 43% chance to win $675, for an expectation of winning $675*.43= $290. I’m not married to my stack, so I’d risk it for a (290-250)/250= 16% return.

I think the JJ+, AK range is way too tight, so I included smaller pairs and suited broadway cards in both players ranges to get roughly 40% equity against two callers and ~55% against just one. But what do I know, I’m a limit player….

uDevil –

It’s great that you guys are having fun analyzing this thing to death. But you are going to have to make this decision on the fly within like 2 minutes time.

The variations that can occur during a game are limitless, you have to be able to judge on the fly and make a decision on the fly.

I don’t think you are going to make such grandeous calculations on the spot. And playing this way you guys are bound to have wild swings up and down. And such swings will promote playing on tilt if you lose $300 in one shot.

I stand by my decision to fold, and play tight, and stay even keeled, I’ll take them down in a later hand where I own their b@lls.

I agree hiltz about these endless calculations. They are great for analysis AFTER the event but the whole point is you need to make quick decisions (online at least) when at the table.

However, I still think think this is a definate push hiltz!

If you fold here, you’re playing like a nit. Full stop, end of discussion.

Hi uDevil,

I don’t think your return is so good. You only have $20 in the pot, so it’s around $300 for you.

It’s funny, I wish I had thought through this a week ago. I played this hand the other day (same action, same relative stacks, AKo) at a lower limit and shipped it in when the limper called and the action came back to me. Didn’t really have the fold equity I’d hoped for, heh heh. Ended up flipping coins. I don’t think this is a super-good a spot as some are making it out. Don’t think it’s super-bad by any means either.

hiltz006,

I agree you can’t really do this kind of thing at the table. But we do it away from the table so that when a similar situation comes up, we can make a decent guess. You’re also right that this kind of thing is fun for me. More fun, I have to admit, than actually playing.

Todd,

“I don’t think your return is so good. You only have $20 in the pot, so it’s around $300 for you.”

You are right. You may risk up to $305, $55 to call the raise to $75 plus the $250 the LP player has left if he calls. The pot is then $725 in this case and your return is only (725*.43-305)/305= 2.2%. Not great, but limit players would kill for not much more than that. You NL guys are no doubt different.

That’s a pretty bad case, though. I think the villains have a wider range so most of the time you’re much better off when one player calls. Also, there is small chance both players fold, in which case you win the $170 now in the pot. That small chance makes a big difference to your expectation. I don’t seem to be having a good numbers day so I won’t try to calculate how much….

“I’m surprised that so many people are afraid that the EP player has AA or KK. Since hero has AK, that’s less likely.”

Me too.

If the EP will limp/cold-call with 55-AA and AJs+ the chances he has AA or KK given that we have AK

If the EP will limp/cold-call with 55-AA and AJs+ the chances he has AA or KK given that we have AK

There seems to be some problem with posting, LOL.

I’ll try one more time, then bail:

“I’m surprised that so many people are afraid that the EP player has AA or KK. Since hero has AK, that’s less likely.”

Me too.

If the EP will limp/cold-call with 55-AA and AJs+ the chances he has AA or KK given that we have AK

I am swinging more towards a fold here as I read the question and reflect. I don’t think either of them are afraid of a push, and an unremarkable button would have a fairly tight 3-betting range.

At the table, in real time, I would have pushed all-in.

A call here is a huge mistake, OOP and whatever the flop brings it doesn’t make life easier. Looking forward to Ed’s response.

I would fold here. Yes, although I have both players covered. The problem lies been sandwiched between 2 players. If I decide to call the re-raise, I would rather push all-in instead of calling the re-raise.
The problem with calling is what range of hand do I put the re-raiser and the limper who called the raise. Tough position to be in. If I miss the flop, I don’t have position, and it will be tough if limper checks, I check and button bets out on the flop. Then what? Not a pleasant position to be in, yes, button is loose, but I rather have position over a loose player.

For some reason I couldn’t stop thinking about this hand. Now I’m thinking that a small raise makes sense.

Facing this situation, there’s pretty much no chance the loose LP player is folding and it would encourage him to go all-in. If he does, the EP player has now seen a tight player raise, a third player 3-bet, the tight player 4-bet, and the third player go all-in. That’s a tremendous show of strength.

The EP player has put $75 in the pot at this point, but that’s less than 1/3 of his stack, so he might just fold after this display. If he does, hero has maximized his equity.

Even if both players just call, the pot is huge now and their stacks represent only a small fraction of the pot. For practical purposes, the situation is the same as if you’d gone all-in (you’re not going to fold on the flop), and it is still a good situation for you.

The difference is that by making a small raise, you got to apply maximum pressure to the EP player before the flop, giving you the best chance to maximize your equity.

I really think we need to move in here.

Calling sucks, as it leaves us OOP in a big pot, likely with only ace high.

Folding might be OK if we had better reads, but I don’t think we do.

We need to shove to maximize our fold equity. If we get heads up we’re likely flipping with the dead money in the pot as overlay.

To everyone who thinks EP has AA/KK, give your head a shake. Have you ever seen a non-tricky player limp-call a 3-bet with AA before in your life? He most likely has a small mid-pair type hand, or a middle strength ace, say AT-AQ. Getting either player to fold a small pocket pair is a huge coup for us.

Also, this is good for meta-game. If we only ever get it in with KK+ we’re way too easy to read pre-flop.

Those who are advocating a push are assuming that the EP player is a mediocre player. Period.

What could a good player call with after seeing the action before him and with a tough player yet to act?

QQ-JJ? If he thinks he has the best hand would he call, risking to play against 2 rather than 1 opponent? He will probably push most of the time. If he suspects he is facing AK in the worst case scenario, he knows he is risking going to the felt in a coin-flip situation with a players left to act – so calling forfeits his fold equity should he rather push

Medium, small pairs? – The implied odds for hitting the set are just about right, but again with palyers left to act, he knows he will have have to fold if ED moves.

AK? Maybe… but not likely

AA-KK? Maybe … Maybe not

Other hands? Probably not …

Unless I know that EP is a mediocre player, I am not playing in this context, given the how this situation has evolved. I prefer pushing when I am 70% favourite rather than when in 50-50 situation (figures for illustration purposes only

And for the die hards… just this week, I was playing deep when dealt AK, I raised and was called by 3 players. Flop comes AK2, I bet hard and everyone folds except button. Turn is a blank, I pot-size bet again and get another call and I start to worry about a set. After the river betting button shows AA. This is a different scenario but what I want to point out is another thing: button should have raised pre-flop, he didnt and got paid off because his hand was concealed.

Push. Not even close.

Anton,

I think a good player will not make this play with big cards or big pairs. If he has AA/KK he is going to put in a big raise because he he doesn’t want to lay a 3-way pot OOP when he could most likely get most of his money in preflop. A good player would either fold or raise AK in his position at this point. Although, I believe it is mostly a fold.

In fact, the only hands that make sense are JJ-88 and maybe some suited connectors if he thinks he can play those profitably(he shouldn’t think that though). If he thinks Ed will call if he calls then he might be close to getting good stack odds to catch a set. However, he is probably going to have to take down some pots without hitting a set. Hence, this is why I think he needs to have medium pairs. There just isn’t really that many hands that he should be doing this with.

You cannot exclude completely the possibilty of EP holding AA/KK. He could be rooting for a move by ED (as most of you would have done). The chances are that he is not but if there is a probaility 20% of that being the case and 80% of EP holding JJ-88 then you are a big dog 20% of the time and 80% a coin-flip (that would probably be mitigated by some fold equity if Ed moves in). On top of that, you have to take into account the posibilty of LP calling, thus reducing further your winning possibilities. This is a messy situation for me.

Threads 13, I agree with your comments. When Greyzy said above nobody was imagining AA or KK when limped in is not accurate, it is the not reraising after the action heats up and OOP.

I limp EP first in with AA especially, more than I should probably. But I think the call is an unsual play. The more I thought about this it would be quite a play, maybe assuming Ed would reraise for him or let him come along for more value. But I think the button is not folding here and I like to get it in before scary flop for them halts it. (misses wiht AK, etc.) So it’s not the limping that deadens the suspicion, it’s the smooth call.

I think it is somewhat of a moot point because I have already put AA and KK in the hand range of the button when calculating where I stand, so if either player has it, same thing.

I still think middle pair. After stating couple days ago that it’s a common mistake I see to call improper odds with sm/med pair, last night 2 limpers, MP raises 5x bb, I am in CO and reraise to 13xbb. I was shortstacked with 33bb’s to start. Sb calls with pocket 6′s with 4 players to yet act, including the original raiser. So most likely will be heads-up or end up all in from Original raiser. I can’t transpose this to a player I never met, but I think EP in this game is very likely making this same mistake.

Ok, he has AA/KK 5% of the time. You said he was a good player. I don’t think a good player would smooth call that a 3-bet. He shouldn’t want the 3rd player in. A good player is going to put in a big raise here with all the dead money he is going to pick up. If it wasn’t a likely 3-way pot, it would be different. In fact,our good player is going to have a hard time calling your AI with JJ-88.

The whole reason he limps AA is to:

a) Gain money via deception.
b) Mix up his play so his limps are dangerous.
c) Get to put in a reraise.

The whole reason why I think a call is no good for Ed is because he doesn’t want to play OOP in a 3-way pot with AK. It would be even worse for the EP player to want to this OOP to 2 players unless he thinks he can isolate the 3-bettor on the flop if he has something on him. He shouldn’t be planning on making money from Ed.

Of course, if he knows who Ed is he might be pulling some FPS to try to impress Ed and then in that case he may some some crazy stuff.

Why wouldn’t AA want a third player in? I really don’t follow that. The pot is sized such that all the money is going in on the flop if AKs calls. He’s still a big favorite over Ax and paired hands. He’s a 70% fav over 2 hands of {AK, 99+}. Really, he’s a ~70% fav over any 2 random hands. He can’t get outplayed. I’m not saying that I put the limper on AA and AA only, but it is in his range for sure.

Your not giving nearly enough infomationon the Early limper, clearly the key to this situation. The fact that he limped in early position in a loose, 2-5 NL game means either he has a hand and wants to get raised, or he’s a total moron. If hes not a total moron, well that’s a pretty big show of strength to flat call, since he cant possibly call with you in the hand and fold to a another raise. His thought process was probably whether or not you would call/raise, and given you’re opinion of the re-raiser, he may be counting on you raising behind him.

If you are not concerned with the re-raiser, neither is the limper, and keeping him in the had assures the action will keep coming as long as he’s in.

His Confidence is high enough (by actions) to warrant a fold here. Again without knowing his style, AA or KK looks to be the most likely hand. Even if he has KK, the re-raiser could easily have one of you’re 3 remaining aces, and AA (more likely), well, you’re dead to a flush.

I would fold.

I folded AK to a raise and another re-raise. They were JJ and QQ…K hit on flop .

The early position player smooth calling after the re-raise is an immediate warning flag… especially after he limped. I agree with John he is the key to the total situation. If he is not a bafoon then something bad is coming… and it smells of AA or KK. If he is a bafoon then I wouldn’t worry about him, but if he is a decent player then this doesn’t bode well.

You have to remember you are sitting at a table of 10 not a table of 6. And I have seen MANY MANY times where AK was crushed by AA and KK. Especially at a table of 10, there are more hands to be selectively pitted against you that are good. At a table of 6 I would push all in automatically, but at a table of 10 I would fold.

9 out of 10 times my gut tells me what is the right thing to do, and when you feel uneasy about something usually that means a fold. This situation makes me feel extremely uncomfortable, if EP is a fool then I would go all in, if EP is a decent player, fold.

Poker Feign, poker is played with cards face down meaning you cannont know what others are holding. This was the best case scenario for you having approx 36% equity. If instead of QQ, you happened to be up against AA, you would have had a 6% preflop equity. Overall, not a bad move unless you are playing against players who frequently re-raise with Ax or some other unimmaginable crap.

Question for all:

Is it possible that EP may be smooth calling with a lower pocket pair and hoping on hitting his set on the flop to crush you and the button?

If EP has pocket pair, maybe he figures that implied odds of the stacks is worth the risk to see if he hits his set on the flop?

Personally if I was EP I would smooth call with pocket pair preflop, to try to hit my set on the flop and then crucify you and the button.

I used to play online all the time at Party Poker.

Then they made it illegal to play online for money.

Absolute Poker claims USA citizens can play online for money. Party Poker won’t let me deposit funds anymore.

Is this legit?

Are USA citizens legally allowed to play online poker for money anymore?

I am a US citizen and I want to play online for money again, but I want to know if it is legal for me to do this?

Todd,

As the pot gets larger you want to increase your chances of taking it down. If he has AA and pushes he should be happy with his result.

hilltz,

It is totally possible for t his player to have a lower PP. In fact, I would expect him to have a low PP. However, that doesn’t mean it is a good play.

What we were discussing earlier is what hands a good player could have. However, I don’t think we should be going to far with this train of thought since we should assume the player is loose since this is a fairly loose game.

Todd,

I also forgot to mention that the 70% number isn’t really helpful here since there is no reason to believe that IF the EP has AA he is up against a random hand.

Here is some food for thought:

Under the assumption that this guy is a good player, he is quite likely to know who Ed is. If he is a good player he shouldn’t want Ed in the pot. It is a perfect spot to isolate the loose player.

I am still real ok with folding here and actually
this is making me think a little deeper. If they players are both loose, we probably have very small fold equity. We generally don’t want to get involved in big pots with high cards against loose players.

What a great exercise this hand has been for me. As previously stated, I would probably not fold here, but now if a similar situation comes up, I will be able to fold (even if it makes me throw-up). I felt weak saying fold at first, but the more and more I think about it the more I believe it is a fold.

If whoever has AA/KK, obviously a mistake to get involved. I put that in my mind, but it is the other scenarios that are somewhat likely and how that stacks up.

If all 3 players end up all in, you have contributed 34% of the pot. If it is an underpair and a weaker ace against you, you have 38% equity. Slightly ok. But if the weaker ace folds and pair calls you are now a 3-2 underdog to underpair and putting in either 280 to win 395 or 305 to win 420, neither one good.

So weigh this small equity advantage against all the possibilites I’m screwed, it’s a fold.

I must train myself to think like this at the table. Of course, without some off table thinking this is too much, hence, my topic sentence, what a great exercise.

hiltz006,

Its possible, but he would be assuming that EM would smooth call as well- thats one hell of an assumption- I would never assume that. If EM knows that the button is an unimpressive player, that EP should know as well, and thus no assume that EM would only call this re-raise.

I just think there is not enough info on EP. His skill level/playing style could throw any argument here right under the bus.

I should have re-read my post…sorry guys, missing a few letters there, please try to fill in the blanks yourselves

Another thing that keeps getting swept under the rug here, is that EP had NOTHING invested, really. 5 bucks in, A raise and a re-raise, smooth call for 70 more with action behind him-

I cant see anything but a monster or an Idiot.

Part of the read on EP that would help is if he was an actor or his actions were usually real. Ed said he thought for awhile. That could be the big “oh what do I do?” act or he could have been trying to read the situation, calculating his odds, or just having trouble letting go of a hand he thinks he should, so in moment of weakness brought on by indecision just called.

Of course, could have been genuinely thinking about whether to raise or call. I never ruled out AA/KK for EP, just said “I” would put him on medium pair and had to consider button having it already for calculations.

I could easily envision AQs on button and TT or JJ for EP here.

If I put myself here (in early positions spot) with AA, I would have been trying to decide whether or not a raise would come from behind me. If I thought there would be, I would call, if not I raise all-in myself- and I would have taken a min to consider those options.

Hi all,

there has been a lot of discussion about whether EP is a “bad” player or not. This led me to this question: If he really IS bad, why should Ed risk his whole stack now and possibly lose it to the button (or the bad player of course)? Why not wait for an other opportunity where Ed’s odds are better and/or where he has EP isolated?

Of course if we buy enough books Ed will simply rebuy after going all-in with his AKs…

But what is your opinion if his stack is ALL the money he has in this situation?

Personally I’d rather fold and let an opportunity pass where I have a small margin and wait for a situation where I have a stronger edge (see above for my thought process why I fold).

What do YOU think?

Threads,

The 70% number is only relevant to EP if he has AA. I’m only saying that EP has plenty of incentive to let AKs or whatever into the pot. He has the opportunity to have 70% equity in a ginormous pot. I wouldn’t be so quick to rule that out. Not everyone just wants to cash in the dead $90 that is out there. There is $550 more to be had.

Let it be written, so let it be done…

AK is not a calling hand. You get most of your equity from causing people to fold.

You are only a big dog to AA or KK.

So, I would Reraise allin to attempt to take down the nice pot.

If called, you are mostly in a coin flip.

If the players are tight, then its a fold.

Ed,

thanks for your comment. This is certainly a weak spot in my game and coming from limit-HE those bigger bets and also bigger swings are something I have trouble getting used to. I guess what you are trying to tell me is that the tougher the games the smaller edges I must accept to take and the higher the volatility will get, right?

Maybe you can help me on this line of thinking: If I have a limited amount of money (no money for a rebuy) should that change my play? Would it be wrong to pass up on a hand with a SMALL +EV and wait for a bigger +EV (I am talking about all-in situations!)? If this wasn’t about poker but about investing in stocks etc. I’d say that waiting would be better. Same in poker?

Aside from a strict financial point of view there might also be a psychological aspect: having a mindset of waiting for “better opportunities” might lead to an easy to read playing style that the other players could exploit. That’s certainly a difference to the anonymus stock market where nobody knows the other actors.

Or am I totally off track here?

Greyzy – if he is playing with “all” that he has, then he shouldn’t be playing 2-5 NL.

#1 – The raiser is a bit loose.

#2 – You hold AK, suited.

#3 – Raiser being loose + you with AK means raise by button MOST likely does not hold AA or KK.

#4 – EP is probably a donk calling out of position with a medium pocket pair.

#5 – both players are medium stacked, and therefore do not pose a deep-stack threat against you.

RESULT = automatic ALL-IN

donk will call, EP will fold and you will have donk dominated, EP with PP will fold, and posed the only real threat

go all in. u have enogh in compared to ur stack that dictates not getting away.

I would go all in and force the 1st raiser out. I would suspect the 1st raiser has a pocket pair smaller than JJ. The reraiser probley has a black jack hand. That is the player you want to bring it heads up with.

Going all in is the only way to get the small pocket pair out of the hand.

I’d say shove

He’s likely to do this re-reaise with AA-JJ, AK-AQ

By shoving it’s likely you’ll get everything except AA and maybe KK to fold

And if you get a call you’re still in ok shape.

And if you get 2 callers well you only need to win a 1/3 of the time to break even.

whata donk threads is u dont have position on both player only on the limper lol