Hand Discussion #4: A Drawing Hand in a No Limit Cash Game

I would have either raised more pre flop (8-10 bb) to try to take it down right away or at least limit the opponents. Or not raising at all just looking for a cheap favorable flop. It seems to me a 3 bb raise against 3 limping opponents won’t accomplish much more than possibly making the hand expensive to play on later streets.
Also, playing 3-4 opponents in an unraised pot tend to generate the same pot growth over the course of the hand as playing one opponent in a raised pot. So I usually refrain from sweetening the pot in a situation like this as I believe I can make the pot grow anyway on later streets if need be.
I would also bet on the flop, and probably about the same amount. Goal would not be to win the hand but to hopefully buy a free river card, hence I can’t bet any less although it would be tempting, but to no avail against three opponents.
I lean towards that type of play if I have a chance to get payed off well if I make my hand, which I have in this situation, drawing to the nuts with many opponents. Had I not had the nut draw, but a regular flush or straight draw, which still figured to win – but still, I probably would have checked then aimed to regain the initiative on the turn with a semi bluff (bet or raise), either to take the hand down right away, or to set myself up for a possible bluff attempt (depending on number of opponents left in the hand) in case I miss my draw on the river.
As we stand on the flop I would call.

I’m folding, because I’m not getting the right price for my draw and hitting an overcard is not a clean out.

This is a classic example where taking a free card is a good idea.

A couple of things that I notice looking at the hand:

1) The preflop raise sizing (3BB, with 2 limpers) is sized as a pot building raise. In a “loose and wild” game, this will get called, and you’ll be playing a big pot with a decent (but not great) hand. I think you should raise more (to eliminate players), or call with position and see how the hand develops. In such a loose game, if you did hit a flush, you’d probably get paid off, so no need to build a pot yet.

2) Regarding the flop bet, I think that this was a bit of a mistake. In a more normal game, this might be a small mistake, but I think that here it’s a big one. Here’s why:

What are you trying to accomplish by betting? In a more normal game, players might fold, and this could be useful as a semi-bluff. In a loose game, at a minimum, it will be called, and build a big pot, again with a draw. That could serve to disguise your hand, but from the sounds of things, you probably don’t need that too much here. A check may disguise things just as much in this game.

The bigger issue, as it applies to loose+wild games, is that you open yourself up to a reraise (which happened in 2 places). That could make chasing your flush expensive at least, and possibly unprofitable.

Your main profit from your hand will come 2 ways: pushing out mediocre hands (which isn’t likely to happen in this game), and getting paid off big if you hit. Take a card, and then try to get paid.

Once you bet the flop, and craziness happened, you probably did have to pay off. The big blind’s betting line is definitely odd. Check/call/reraise? Is he slowplaying a monster? Maybe, but I would think that a set would try to protect their hand from the draws on that board. a drawing hand like KJ spades, or 57 spades? More likely, but even then, if you hit your flush, you likely win. All in all, most of his hands lose if you hit your flush. If he has a draw, you might even be ahead now.

I guess, my summary would be that in a loose game like this, I’d be much more likely to use my position to both call preflop and check on the flop. Play a small pot, and if you hit it big, start getting money in. In a loose game, you don’t have to worry as much about not getting your big hands paid off.

like everyone else said, i’d reraise more or limp it. i’d probably limp it in a looser game and make a normal raise in a tighter game.

after raising preflop, i’d make a standard continuation bet and probably the rest of the hand plays out the same…oh well.

I would have re-raised more pre-flop in an attempt to thin out the field. Even if the SB doesn’t call here, the 2 limpers probably have the odds to call. I’d probably raise 5xBB here, or call as Weasel suggested.

On the flop, a bet here is a semi-bluff… right now, you just have ace-high. So, if this were head’s up, this would seem viable. But against 3 other players, some of whom may just be waiting to see what the pre-flop aggresor will do? I just don’t see it working. Sure, if your spade hits on turn, everyone might get scared and you don’t get any more $$$. But if you try to build the pot, you run the risk of creating a conflagration like this, ending up with tough decision to make.

Table description: Fairly loose and wild with lots of payoffs – sounds yummy!

The two of them limp and you hold AsTs and want to make a little raise to “sweeten the pot.” Since there is already a lot of paying off going on, I wouldn’t worry too much about trying to suck people in postflop. You have a nice hand against their range in position, so I like limping behind, encouraging other limpers, so that they can get trapped postflop if I hit a big hand. Also, stacks might be too shallow for this. I could be wrong.

If you have seen them play loose/weak, however, you can raise to take control of the hand and try to take it down postflop, but I think this works better against a single opponent. You would also raise more than 3x in that case.

Preflop you raised it 3x and got a call from the BB and both limpers call as well. It doesn’t sound like you have a real good read on what types of hands they would limp/call with (and also what the BB would cold-call with), but they obviously have a wide range.

The flop comes Qs6s4d. There is a little over ~12bbs in the pot with four players. The shortest stack has roughly 7x the pot.

They all check to you. Should you bet or check?

I would check and here’s why: I want to possibly stack some people here, but if I bet now, most hands that could improve on the turn to payoff hands will probably fold. For instance, 87, 76, Qx, or a small PP that didn’t hit a set, can all improve on the turn while I improve to a better hand.

Also, if someone already has a big hand, like 66, 44, 64, then I prevent them from making some gigantic c/r that ruins the value of my draw.

However, I think there are some problems with the check though:

1) You forego winning it immediately, which might occur a healthy percentage of the time (depending on how loose your game is). The board is fairly raggy, Q64, but those low connectors and two spades create some kind of drawing hands that they might call with. 12bbs is worth taking down immediately if you think it will work.

2) You refrain betting for value when someone will call you down with a lower flush draw or a weaker hand that they will fold on the turn when you double-barrel (since you have the betting leverage with your position and your nice draw).

3) This goes along with point 1, but besides the two OESDs and the flush draw, the Queen-high flop makes it hard for overs to call, so you’re more likely to take it down. If you don’t, you can check turn and get the free card and you might get extra value from a donk who believes you are bluffing river, since you checked turn (and can’t spot the free card play).

There is also the small concern that by not betting the flop and building the pot you will not get a chance to build it to the point where you can stack someone if you do make your flush, but given the description of your game, this doesn’t seem like a problem. I could be wrong. My 2 cents.

Given that you did bet flop, and you encountered all kinds of action, the remaining decision is a mathematical one strictly. What range do you put them on? What will you be getting from the pot if you shove?

Against a set, you’re a 3-to-1 dog.
Against Q6 or 64, you’re a 1.8-to-1 dog.

Those are the most likely hands you will see if you encounter gobs of action on the flop.

You got c/r, but another stack who just called, now moves. This is important because he might be just shoving here with an OESD or a lesser flush draw due to the big pot that has developed. This creates a lot of dead money and might force you to call, but I haven’t done the calculation.

I ran a simulation on Pokerstove, and if one player has either two-pair or a set, and the other has either an OESD or a FD or a Queen (unlikely, I know), then your equity = 30%.

I like the pre-flop raise. But I’m gonna throw in my vote with the people who say to check the flop. Sure Hero has a flush draw but only has ace-high and one overcard at the moment, not strong enough to go building the pot just yet.

I don’t think the hand was played badly. Preflop, you almost surely have the best hand and you’re on the button; raising seems fine. I like to keep my raise sizes pretty consistent, so I would raise more here. (You wouldn’t raise only 3xBB with AA, would you?)

On this flop, you’re going to want to bluff or semi-bluff with some hands to balance out the times you value bet hands like AQ, KQ, overpairs etc. Your nut flush draws seem like the best hands to do this with. So I like the bet.

Calling the all-in is close, but given the 2:1 odds you’re getting, it’s probably right and can’t be very wrong.

Yup, the description that you’re stepping in a big dog poo is spot on. You’ve really unleashed hell, while with the hands you’re apparantly up against, you’d have been happier with a free card.

It seems kind of strange that MP folds to the BB’s all-in bet, considering the odds he’s getting, which are better than yours.

Calling the all-in bet is not right I think. You can pretty much discount the bluff, he just sat down and he’s re-raising into a three player pot. I would be thinking of two pair or a set as well, TPTK might be true too, but only as a semi-bluff.
Given those ranges, I think you’d have to let the hand go, you’re *just* getting right odds to call against two pair, but you’re not getting the right odds against a set, which I’d consider more likely.

I like the pre-flop raise. I think I’m making that raise with any drawing hand on the button if I’m pretty confident I’m not going to get re-raised off it. It’s a tiny investment, but you’ve taken the initiative in the hand. You’ve built the pot to a point where if flop a nice draw and somebody bets, you can really put in a meaningful raise that’s hard to call without something good. If you moderately connect with the flop, you flop bets are more legitimate and it’s more clear where you are in the hand if you get a call on the flop.

I’m not so wild about the bigger raises. This really isn’t a great heads up hand. I really don’t want to throw in a big raise and flop an A and end up playing a big pot with a sketchy hand.

I think where we ended up isn’t so bad. When the flop hits, we have an overcard, a nut flush draw and a back door nut straight draw. The guy who shoved in was fairly short. He could have a lot of hands that we’re in great shape against and only 2 that were not quite getting the right money for. It might have been nice to take the free card, but now that were here, I think that call is easy. Maybe he has a set, but he may have KQ or worse. The BB’s action is a little weird. I think there’s a real chance he’s squeezing the MP player who’s the only one so far who’s shown actual strength. I think the BB could turn up something surprisingly weak.

If the game is loose and wild, I think it’s reasonable to take a card on the flop. We can still build the pot if we make our draw and there are a couple of bigger stacks out there. We don’t really want to be the ones calling the big raise.

These are some great responses. Thanks guys.

(Sorry I forgot to list stack sizes at the beginning,Ed. I played to wee hours on Thursday night and went back in for the poker day shift Friday, so I was a tad frazzled when I posted).

Anyway, reading how more experienced nl players think through the hand really helps. Especially the indepth analysis like HDT and a few others. It’s getting my limit-mind right.

At the beginning of the post I stated I was posting the entire hand because I felt I made multiple street mistakes.

One of the more helpful comments is to consider the personality of the table. Even though there were only 3 loose weakies, that’s a lot. And I guess the unpredictalbe factor at a table like that sould be thrown in. I felt at the time like I should have probably checked, but after getting cr’d by the mp player and then the bb who had checked , called , and then rr’d the mp it was now obvious I should have checked. And the mp folded after cr’ing the field. And moi` went from great position to squeezed.

2.1 was borderline, and truth be told I didn’t want to call. But I was confused by the action and the bb appeared to not want a call
( probably did want to take it down with Q6o ). Anyway, if that was a mistake to call I felt like I made a bigger mistake somewhere to put myself in that position.

You should not of bet the flop with a draw like that. Text book pot odds at that point. Are you getting 3.5:1 odds or you call?