Hand Discussion #14: Alas, An Overcard

I don’t hate the way OP played the hand, although some will find it weak-passive. He can even think about folding the flop, although it’s such a small bet, I can’t fault him for calling. With a medium-strength hand like this, I don’t particularly like leading out (or check-raising). Leading out, he’ll mostly fold out hands he beats and get called when he’s behind. I’ll mostly lead out with good made hands (AK, KQ, sets) and, for balance, also with flush draws and straight draws.

Given that it’s small-stakes NL, villain is probably playing straightforwardly and has a K. Remember also that it’s a 3-way pot and villain is not last to act, giving a little more credibility to his bet.

Basically what you have here is second pair with no real draw (on the flop) and it’s important to treat it as such – forget about the fact that it was one of the best preflop hands. That’s not relevant now.

much of the posted discussion was on preflop raise size with
views as to whether 1) JJ should open raise larger than “average”
and similarly 2) if EP should also generally open raise for more
than “average”. would it be possible to get your thoughts on this
aspect of the hand Ed ?

i don’t have any experience online or 6 handed so not much of a
clue as to ranges. we also don’t have any indication as to the
villain’s style. my 2 cents worth is that i would want to know as
cheaply as possible if anyone paired the flopped K and the way
to do that is with a C-bet and the show of strength that goes with it,
espeacially from EP. i would make that bet a little bit large like $4
or so to again show strength and possibly knock out a draw or
weak K.

if called on the flop i wouldn’t put any more in the pot. while villain
is only making small bets as the hand played out, we can’t know
that ahead of time and i would rather let a draw with position
steal a small/medium pot than get involved in a big pot OOP.

but as the hand did play out, IF i knew villain was any good at all,
i would call his river bet. his flop and turn bets look like blocking
bets for a draw to a flush with something like Ax suited. AJ for the
straight looks unlikely- hero has 2 of the jacks and villain is not
trying to charge/push off a draw with a $2 bet on the turn and would
more likely have checked the flop with a gut shot draw hoping for a
free card.

after the passive response to his flop and turn bets, which looks
like hero is drawing, villain makes less than 1/2 pot river bet knowing
hero doesn’t have flush and probably doesn’t have straight since
hero would have either bet or CRd his $2 turn bet with the flush
draw still on. villain may feel his river bet is now as much value
bet (A high) as bluff if villain missed a flush draw.

“auto filled” my real name on post above-
anyway art = tobori.

I can’t say I’m in love with thread’s line. I understand that he has showdown value for a medium sized pot and want to get there. I think that this board hits my UTG range so strongly that I’m going to start barrelling and challenge him to call me down. I think this player is also pretty weak, so I really want to bet my hand for value as well, even with the over. So, I’m betting the flop. The turn isn’t a great card for us as it just made a bunch of 2 pair hands and pair + draw hands out of things we were once beating. I think I’m mostly going to lead and evaluate here. I’d like to set my price to see the river and we only have 3 truly clean outs, so it isn’t a total disaster to get blown off the hand. On a flat call with the same river, I’m probably betting 30% pot. Something like that. He folds his draws, calls with his T’s and things that beat us and never bluff raises us. Or at least that’s the sort of line I’d take with a weak/passive stereotype, which is my baseline for this sort of cat.

As played, I think the villain has a really wide range on the flop. Something like 100% of his preflop range. Given that he’s playing less than a full stack, cold calls in MP and later bets $2, I’m putting him on a fishy range. Let’s call it pairs, suited broadway, suited connectors, other suited and connected trash.

On the turn, our villain bets $2. This is one of three things. AJ. We have 2 Js, so somewhat unlikely. A draw that he’s trying to “semi-bluff” with. Most competent villains will make a bigger semi-bluff, but betting $2 into $10 just doesn’t scream competence, so the jury is still out. But, I put this in the mildly unlikely category. Finally, weak made hands. I think this is the most likely hand. This is either bad Ks, Ts or 5s or AQ/QJ/Q9 that called with a gutter/oesd and just outran us. Possible some pp’s below T as well. The bulk of these hands being bet here are weak Ks and Ts.

River pairs the 5. Not great, 5′s just passed us. Not horrible, not too many 5′s that we’re worried about, but he’s a fish, so they’re out there. We check, having shown no strength the whole hand. A ton of draws bricked. Villain bets < 1/2 pot. I think the majority of the time he’s betting commensurate with his hand strength. Putting him on a T or K/Q. The rest of the time is roughly equally split between monsters and air, canceling each other out. We beat the T’s and lost to the K’s/Qs. I can’t see trying to push him off anything. I’d call because I’d want to see what he’s playing like this and I think the price I’m getting is close enough to neutral to see a showdown, believing a showdown is more valuable to me than him.

re-raise the flop, if called, fold at the earliest possible moment.

i don’t understand the logic of check/folding on the flop on this board in a 6-max ring game being the pfr and “assuming” MP has a K because he bets.

MP could easily be semibluffing the heart draw, or betting a lower pair such as a T after you showed weakness by checking. If the K were an A, or if this was full-ring multiway i probably would reconsider the c-bet and possibly call a bet or maybe even check/fold, but this is a relatively good flop for JJ in a 6-max game and you need to lead out for value, folding equity, and to charge any drawing hands.

I don’t see a strategy of routinely playing passively with hands like JJ (especially as the pfr) on these sorts of boards as being profitable in 6-max games.

I’m interested to read ed’s analysis of the hand.

“I think that this board hits my UTG range so strongly that I’m going to start barrelling and challenge him to call me down. I think this player is also pretty weak, so I really want to bet my hand for value as well, even with the over.”

Although it’s possible for a bet to have both a value component and a bluffing component, these two sentences leave me confused about what you’re trying to accomplish.

“Barreling” implies to me that you don’t think JJ has much showdown value, so you’re playing it as a bluff, trying to get better hands out. In other words, JJ is now 72 to you. Is that what you meant, or am I out of tune with current terminology?

Of course value betting makes sense if you expect worse hands to call. I haven’t played much online 50 but I would expect AT or various draws to call a flop bet. Do you expect those hands to call a turn bet, or do you suggest a turn bet as purely protection plus bluff?

“you need to lead out for value, folding equity, and to charge any drawing hands”

I get value and charging drawing hands, but what FE are you aiming for? Precisely QQ? What else folds that beats you or that has enough equity that you’re pulling for a fold?

…snip…
“Barreling” implies to me that you don’t think JJ has much showdown value, so you’re playing it as a bluff, trying to get better hands out. In other words, JJ is now 72 to you. Is that what you meant, or am I out of tune with current terminology?
…snip…

Sorry, I wasn’t entirely clear there, was I.

I’m betting because I’m betting that board with 100% of my range. This is one of those rare spots where you can put a lot of pressure on an opponent OOP. JJ isn’t exactly 72, so we have more flexibility on later streets, but it isn’t the nuts. Again, I would do that with a large part of my range. There isn’t a whole lot we’re getting to fold that beats use, but there are a lot of hands we can get to fold on the turn that have very good equity against us. We’d like many of those to fold before a bad card comes on the river and we have a difficult decision. As it happens in this case I do have showdown value and the guy is a fish, so it may well turn out to be a value bet.

I’d take this line as opposed to trying to c/c it down even though we might be best.

I either lead the flop for 2/3 pot size bet and if I am called I probably check/fold the turn or fired a second barrel if a scare card (ace… pair the board… etc)

the other line is check raising the flop and then potentially leading the turn or being done with the hand…

the way this was played was the least desirable option for me… we have learned nothing about the villians hand and are facing a call that we probably should make but could easily be dominated… id much prefer to define the hand much earlier on…

Ed- What do you think of a check raise on the flop? It is 6 max- sure he might have a K but I think a lot of time he doesn’t.

Also- JJ is a classic low limit NL players favorite hand to stick in an oversized PF raise with the stupid saying “only 3 ways to play em and they are all wrong… id rather win a small one than lose a big one”— this is why these limits are so beatable– JJ is a top 10 starting hand… particularly in 6 max… i hate people that hate JJ- learn to play post flop and you’ll learn “the right way to play em”

When someone makes an oversized PF raise and I have a read on them and can put them on JJ I will call with speculative hands and steal the pot from them if a Q K or A hits… but when you play a LAG style you are forced to improve your flop, turn, and river play

Ed- Why don’t you play higher limits? You have a gift for explaining poker strategy but I don’t understand why you only play 2/5 live and smaller games online– do you just prefer it as it is less stress?

I think betting the flop is fine (mainly for protection the times JJ is good) check-calling kind of sucks, but I think it’s not that bad to see what Villain does on turn.

He bets small, so we call again because our hand could be good/we could improve/Villain could check river to see a cheap showdown.

On the river I would most likely fold barring any reads because he doesn’t really expect you to fold for this $6 bet that often, given that you’ve called flop/turn and he can just check behind his Tens.

I wouldn’t think he would be value betting worse PPs or Ace-high either.

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I agree the Q was the worst turn card. OK, Qh would have been worse. This is obviously what make JJ so hard to play …

I think with the line taken, you have to call the river bet. Maybe the OP was planning to c/r the turn, but the Q spoiled that? You are getting over 3:1 and I think you’re ahead of his range.

However, I would have led out $4 on the flop. Hey, I raised and a bet OOP looks like AK. I’d expect to take it down there.

Past that, you could c/r the flop, especially HU. I think a near pot size raise would be in order. I would even bet the turn when then Q came. I don’t think there are many hands that can call you … AJ, KQ, KJ, AhXh, or anything you might have been behind previously KK, TT, 55. He plays it weakly enough that it looks like a scared King, K9 maybe. If he calls my bet/raise on the turn, I am done with the hand as whatever he would call with has me beat. But taking the more aggressive approach, I think we can get him to fold often enough. It’s not like we are bluffing

bet/f, bet/f(or c/f vs fish if turn card hits his range alot ie. queen) vs. stations and weak tight fish
c/f vs competent players (RIO), never ever c/c… like what are you representing ? Tx, QJ, AJ, JJ/QQ
and 0 strong hands. that + being OOP makes it hell to play on turn and river.