Hand Discussion #13: Out Of Position With Top Pair

I bet here.

My goal is playing a small to medium-sized pot heads-up against the loose small blind.

Since the tight regular has position on both of us, we put him in a bad relative position by leading here since he won’t close the action if he decides to stay in the pot. Even though he is tight, his hand range is wider from the hijack, meaning that the ace-high two-flush board must not necessarily have hit his hand.

From my fishy world..

I would bet. 1/2 to 2/3ds the pot. Maybe even pot sized if I thought he was weak. The small blind might be a problem - although not sure he would try a check raise after the flop unless he tried to bluff.

As an alternative play - check raising might be effective against a tight passive player.

Would be happy to win the hand before the flop - wouldn’t like to give him a cheap shot at making a flush. Don’t think I would fear a straight draw as I’m not sure he would raise with 78 (I wouldn’t).

If he calls or raises then I probably proceed cautiously although I might decide that the flop missed his hand.

I think he probably has a decent hand - like a medium pair or something suited like KQ suited. Unless it was his standard raise - his 3 and 1/2 x BB raise might make he think he also preferred to win before the flop.

err… that’s it - over to the experts…

The SPR for this hand ended up around 9. Against the tight player this is probably too high to commit. I would prefer to 3-bet preflop to get a better SPR and also to see how the tight player responded. If he is of the type that would only 4-bet with hands better than mine, I could safely fold. Hopefully the tight player would fold to my 3-bet leaving me heads up with position against the loose player.

Given that I only called, looking at the flop I have TP with a very good kicker, and second best back door FD. I have to be worried about being dominated by AK which is well within the tight players range. Rather than go for a check raise which only build a big pot when I don’t want to commit just yet, I would lead out $20 hoping the tight player would fold. If he does, I am more inclined to commit against the loose player who may be willing to go too far with TP worse kicker.

If the tight player raises after I lead out on the flop, I’ve already put in over 10% of my stack. Since I don’t want to commit, and I’m OOP, etc, I would give him credit for a better hand, and fold.

If the tight player calls, and loose player raises, I’m faced with a tough decision. Do I push all in knowing the tight raiser would only call with a better hand? Also if the tight player folds, the loose player might still win with a flopped 2 pair or set. Hopefully this scenario does not come up. If it does I probably fold, and kick myself for not 3 betting preflop.

Say, the tight player calls and the loose player calls, which is a likely scenario. They have to be thinking my range is anywhere from a good made hand, like a set, A9s, AK, AQ, AJ or some sort flush draw, or a SD or some sort of pair, or I might be bluffing and just be taking a shot at the pot.

What I do on the Turn will depend of course on the Turn card and the SB if he is still in the pot.

I am trying to maximise here and get all in. We’re getting paid enough from the loose player drawing, and the tight player with AT-AJ to just go for it.

So I would check and let the tight player c-bet.

When the loose player calls, because he’s loose, the pot would be around $55 on me, I would raise to $90, then shove the last $100 on any turn.

Of course that all depends on recent play.

I bet here too, probably about $17, to shut down the flush draw. I might have a redraw if it comes on the turn, so that argues for betting less, maybe $15 or something.

I also want to let the other players know they have to be worried about my ace. I find that straightforward play is usually correct at my local cardroom. Either they believe and fold or lose their minds and call down with 77.

If anyone sticks around I play to keep the pot small until the draws clear up. Probably check behind on the turn and call/bet a reasonable amount on the river.

At the risk of contradicting what I just wrote, I’d generally play it the same way I’d play a flopped draw from the blind to balance my range a bit (I might call here with 78s or a couple of high clubs, semi-bluff the flop and keep it small until I hit).

To me it seems obvious. You have top pair with a decent kicker and a 3 backdoor flush draw. I make a pot-sized bet, hoping to get heads up against the bettor. If I get re-raised by the bettor (but not all-in) I would call and hope the turn improves my hand. If the turn is a club I bet again, representing the flush, making it look like a value bet, hoping to induce a fold. Same bet if the turn is a 7 or 8. If he comes back over the top I would probably fold, since he opened the hand, called another bet on the flop and turn. If I am still in it on the river I would lead out again, folding to an all-in re-raise but otherwise sticking it out to the showdown.

I basically have two lines to choose from for situations like this. Both aims to pot commit on the flop if not get the entire stack in. If it’s up to me, no small pots allowed with TPTK on the flop! Both lines are also very similar to lines I use for strong draws, such as nut flush draws, and stronger mades, such as sets.
(Let’s assume if play continues past the flop only one opponent remains.)

Line A I use against aggressive opponents that are easier than others to coax into a raising war, because they cannot keep themselves from pouncing on perceived weakness. I do this by betting out no more than half the pot. If I get a re-raise against me, I push the rest…

Line B I use against more suspicious opponents that are more likely to fold when bet into like in line A. In this case I aim for a check raise to take the total pot to about 120.

If, in line A, I only get a call rather than a re-raise or fold, I will look for a check raise (all-in not unlikely) on the turn no matter what card falls (I will claim the right to represent any made draws).

If I only call with TPTK I can’t see how I can avoid calling most rivers as well. Might just as well get that money into the pot on the turn as well, with me being the aggressor owning the folding equity, instead of the other way around. In case the turn is checked around, I will bet +pot on the river.

If my CR on the turn was called (and the pot should be around +140) I will hit the breaks hard, and likely fold to any river bet, unless I was playing a stronger made than TPTK.

In Line B, if my check raise gets a call rather than a re-raise or a fold, with TPTK I will go all in on the turn, essentially no matter what. Had I had a draw on the turn I would have preferred to check (fold); had I had a set or better I would have preferred to check (call/raise), so that my opponent wouldn’t be knowing if I checked strength or weakness.

Normally I also prefer line A when out of position and line B when in position, but had I been in position my prefered line would have been different still.

Anyway, I have found no matter which line I take, having a series of well though out lines like this never leaves me lost in a hand, which frequently was the case no more than 6 months ago. I highly recommend this approach…

what mike said.

excellent reasoning imho.

@mike:
what would you do if the tight player 4bets us PF when 3betting as suggested (SB folds)?

Haven’t read the other responses yet.

Pre-flop, I think I prefer to 3-bet to isolate the weak player. You will have good relative position on the flop, but this is going to be a tough hand to play against a good regular OOP.

My goal for the hand is going to play a medium sized pot with the tight player. I’m probably willing to play for stacks against the SB, depending on the action. I think it may be tough to get there, though.

The SB may make this hand very tough to play. The pot is already $20. If you lead or check/call and he comes a long with any pair or any draw, you going to end up with such a big pot on the turn that you are just going to have to get it in. These 3-way pots are miserable in that respect.

As played, I think I donk lead for pot and dump it if I get raised from the tight player. The tight player will fold most hands that you beat and raise most hands that beat you. I really don’t think there is very much at all he calls with. If the SB goes c/c and the tight player folds, I play for stacks, going 2/3 pot on the turn and shoving the rest on the river thinking he’s going to pay me off with a rag A. If both players call on the flop and the turn is blank, I can’t see what the tight player has that I beat.
The sane choice is probably to c/f, but I’ve never been much of a folder.

man - I got a LOT to learn!

3-bet preflop is fine, as is folding pre-flop. This is six-max: he’s not exactly two off the button, he’s in EP, second to act.

Post-flop I bet, 1/2 to 2/3ds. I expect folds here. If I don’t get them, I’m pretty much done.

Check-raises are intriguing for this hand, and probably how players better than me extract a ton of value at higher levels. In practice, I find I get punished on the turn (by a club or a goofy card that two-pairs the SB’s ace-rag) if I check the flop. It’s an ugly situation that you let happen to you if you don’t take control and re-pop pre-flop.

I would be thinking of check/callining the flop here mostly. A check/raise doesn’t get any value from worse aces. Still, it force his semi-bluff hands to fold so I think it’s an ok play some portion of the time.

He is going to c-bet a high frequency on this flop 3-way after 2 checks in position so I would mostly check to exploit that.

I think the best plan is to check/call the flop and plan on a check/fold or bet/fold on the turn and a bet/fold on the river. Reason for a turn bet/fold that I think his double barreling ranges are two-pair or better/AK/ and some semi-bluffs. I don’t think we have the odds to make a call down from the turn so its going to bet a fold. We could occasionally raise the turn as a balance though. A smaller bet works on the turn also because it gets some value from his Ax hands and his mid-pairs(and charges draws). The problem is that it leaves us in a pickle if we get raised because he could be bluffing us.

I don’t think we are committed here, but we can’t really go away for a bet when we hit the flop we want.

I was thinking about this a little more. I think a flop bet might be really good because it squeezes the preflop raiser. Essentially, he knows there is a loose player to his left so his actions are going to be a little more pure.

Just a thought.

…snip…
The MP opener was about a 24/19/3.5 player, which means his opening range in that spot is probably {22+,A9o+,Axs,KJo+,KTs+,QJs-54s, QTs-T8s} maybe something like that. Maybe he folds some of the weaker hands in that range. He’s an aggro online 6-max player, and probably a decent winner at $1-$2.

The SB is a 40/25/4 or so.
…snip…

I’m a little surprised you didn’t isolate pre-flop given that the MP player will lay down a lot of that range.

Regardless, I still like leading as you have the MP played squeezed a bit with the SB still to act. You definitely want to get it all in with the SB.

…snip…
To be honest, the pace of online play is way too fast for me to make good decisions all the time.
…snip…

No doubt. I hate that “of course, that’s the only hand he could have had” feeling after you make a hurried decision for your stack.

…snip…
Preflop I don’t think is super clear-cut either way. 3-betting, getting MP to fold and SB to call is obviously a dream scenario.
…snip…

For sure. If the MP player is tough or just aggressive, 3-betting can lead to some really sticky spots.

…snip…
I was playing about 28/22 at the time, which is probably why people were taking more shots at me. I dunno.
…snip…

I blame stox and cardrunners. The mid-stack six max game is so 3-bet and 4-bet centric these days. I’ve been taking most of my OOP bluff 3-bets out of my game lately. Nobody gives you any credit at all and you end up playing these bloated pots OOP.

…snip…
The other thing I definitely didn’t want was to fold out weak aces from the SB. Some of these 40/25 guys call 3-bets with A8, and some don’t. If an A flops and he has one, I expect to get him for a lot postflop even if I don’t 3-bet.
…snip…

I don’t think a 40/25 guy ever folds an A here. He has an A for goodness sakes. But, I do see your point. You are getting his money no matter what. It’s more a matter of how well can you play against the MP player if you flop a hand. Keeping the pot small enough that you can figure out if he has a hand before your stack is in has a lot of benefit.

Given that his PFR is pretty wide, I really do prefer a lead to a c/r. If you go for the c/r and the SB comes along, you are just so pot stuck at a time when you really aren’t in good shape against the MP player if you get action.

Thinking about it some more still. I think this squeeze stuff makes me like leading a little more. I think I like a lead about 60% of the time. I’d make a bet right around 2/3-3/4 of the pot. Enough for the SB to call, the MP to be honest with me, and to charge draws. If I decided to c/r then I would make a similarly sized reraise for the same reasons. However, I think I would be more will to c/r with a caller since I may get him trapped with a worse ace but still lose the initial bettor.

Given the ranges listed, think you are way ahead on the flop and want to encourage betting from the aggro player and calling from the bad player so I’d check/call the flop expecting the aggro to bet and the SB to call. I don’t want to bet the flop as the aggro may raise and push out the bad SB.

Not to sure what to do if the aggro bets and the SB raises. What are the chances he would do this with TP or a draw vs 2pr or a set? When you say he is ‘bad’, does he overvalue TP and big pair hands? If he over values his hands I’d probably push, if he’d only re-raise 2pr or better, I’d fold.

On the turn, would depend on what fell. If another rag, I’d check/call again unless the aggro would be unlikely to fire a blank into two without an Ace; in which case, I’d bet about 1/2 the pot. If a face card falls I’d try for a check/raise for the size of the pot assuming the aggro would bet with either the Ace or face.

I think that you really need to 3bet this preflop or fold it (more inclined to fold it because AK is safer for doing this), and fold it if 4bet into.

Overpair and top pair type of hands really don’t do so well in multiway pots.

As played c/r c-bet and look for reasons to get out of the hand

ED, I thought the original q was about how to handle the post-flop play, No???

Reading these responses it seems my “bet 75% or more and then play it cheap” line is too tournament-y. Or maybe just bad?

At first any suggested line that contained a shove seemed way too aggressive, but they make sense in cash games where your last chip is less valuable.

It seems that the suggested lines are a lot more polar than mine: either play it lightly or ship it. Not both.

My line seems to (incorrectly?) straddle those ideas.

And yeah, putting the idea of a potential squeeze in the pre-flop raiser’s mind tickles me. Good stuff.

Oki,
Regarding 3-betting AQ pre-flop, I seldom do it (same with AK), but welcome a 3-bet from opponent when I am original raiser, so I can 4-bet all in with, on average, high equity against 3-bettor’s range and lots of money already in the pot.
However, reason for why I don’t 3-bet myself with AQ and AK is that I could be faced with an
all-in bet rather than making it myself, which is worth avoiding given that any flop is more likely to help me than to break me. Even if it also misses me, in which case I can get away relatively cheaply and unharmed against an over-pair etc.
Folding AQ to one raise, even out of position and no matter raisor’s position is way way way too weak…

Given the new information I’ll change my strategy.

Obviously I’d like to get the MP out of the hand to get heads up in a big pot with SB. At the same time I still don’t want to commit against the MP because the SPR isn’t right against him, but I’m willing to risk more than usual to stack the SB.

My best chance to stack SB is if he has an A with a worse kicker. I’m pretty sure the MP will continuation bet. I’d like to see how big this continuation bet is, and whether or not he gets Check/Raised by the SB, which I think is a good possibility given his LAGGYness if SB is bad and has a weak A. Given the MP’s range of hands, a reraise by me should force him out, and the pot will big enough by then that I’ll be all in with the SB. If MP does not fold to my reraise, I’m not putting any more money in the pot unimproved.

If the SB just calls after the MP cont bet, I would overcall, and wait for the Turn. On a blank Turn I’d lead out, 2/3 pot which should fold the MP unless he has me beat. I’m counting on my overcall to make him nervous if his hand isn’t strong enough to commit against me.

If the MP checks behind on the flop, then I’ve kept the pot small which is probably good against the MP when I’m OOP with just a pair. At that point I’d lead out with a pot size bet on the Turn which should fold MP, or I would raise if the SB led the Turn. I still don’t want to commit against the MP, so if he’s still in when its back to me, I would let him have it.

If my plans go badly, then I’ve probably lost more than 1/3 of my stack, which I know is a mistake, but that’s the extra risk I’m taking for the potential reward of the SB’s stack.

Personally, I’d choose between two lines:

1) make a weak lead, hoping to induce a flop raise so we can commit to the hand on the flop for our stack OR get two callers so we can lead out again on the turn

2) check-call and then lead out on the turn, hoping to get maximum value from worse Ace-x hands or big PPs that we’ve outflopped

A third line I’d consider would be to try a check-raise on the turn if a non-scare card comes

…snip…
make a weak lead, hoping to induce a flop raise so we can commit to the hand on the flop for our stack OR get two callers so we can lead out again on the turn
…snip…

I wouldn’t be so excited about getting all-in with the MP player on the flop. He probably isn’t going broke with AJ and certainly isn’t with AT for the most part. He probably doesn’t put you on AQ, but still, if you get a lot of action you are significantly behind his range.

c/r the flop does get you a bet if he has nothing. But, man, it really gets you pot stuck if you are behind.

I think there is more merit to c/c the flop. The MP villain is going to bet the A-high flop a lot. He is going to shut down for the most part if he gets action and doesn’t have an A.

If it goes c/c on the flop, I’m mostly going to check the turn and c/c a river bet. He’d play a lot of A’s we beat that way. Particularly if no club rolled off.

If he bet the turn, I’d peel one for a 1/2 pot bet and pay off a 1/2 pot bet on a blank river. I would give some serious thought to folding to a pot sized bet on the turn. Though we’ve under-repped our hand enough that I wouldn’t begrudge a c/rai there.

I see Ed hasn’t posted his line yet.

Thinking about this more I’d like to tweak my line. I think leading out on the flop might be good, but like Jane said, the MP might raise with a wide range folding out the SB, or the betting might escalate too fast if SB reraises, and I’m not committed against MP. Therefore I prefer checking on the flop to give myself good relative position if MP continuation bets like I expect him to do.

Whatever happens, if it gets back to me on the flop, I would like to raise enough to get us right to the commitment threshold, or slightly past, to put MP to the test. For instance if MP leads $20 and SB calls, instead of overcalling like I said before, I’m changing my line to making it $80 to go into the approx $60 pot. Unless MP has at least 2 pair, I’m pretty sure he’s folding, even if he has AK.

At that point I wait to see what happens. If MP doesn’t fold here on the flop, I’m essentially done with the hand.

…snip…
Whatever happens, if it gets back to me on the flop, I would like to raise enough to get us right to the commitment threshold, or slightly past, to put MP to the test. For instance if MP leads $20 and SB calls, instead of overcalling like I said before, I’m changing my line to making it $80 to go into the approx $60 pot. Unless MP has at least 2 pair, I’m pretty sure he’s folding, even if he has AK.
…snip…

I really don’t think he folds AK there given the number of FD+gutshot sorts of hands that Ed could hold in the BB. But, who knows. Crazier things have happened.

I have a little trouble with this line in general because not better hands fold (we can quibble about AK, so maybe 1 better hand) and no worse hands call. So, we end up bluffing with a hand that has some nice showdown value.

The upside is that the board is such that we wouldn’t get bluffed off our hand much if the villain did shove. He really can’t have many combo draw or pair + draw sorts of hands. He likely doesn’t have Kc6c. 7c8c and Tc8c aren’t that likely either. Maybe KcJc or JcTc, but that’s only 2 hands and not really super big draws.

Todd, If MP has AK and doesn’t fold here, at least I’ve given him something to think about, and I’m not losing any more being dominated by him. However, I might play my sets the same way, so I should expect to get paid off by him big time when he over commits his TPTK hands and SPRs are too high. I would agree with your line, but with such a bad SB, I’ve altered my plans to try getting all in with just the SB and winning a big pot against him, rather than a medium size pot from both players as I normally would.

What really makes this hand interesting for me is that I’m committed against one player and not committed against the other, and how best to balance the strategy…

Check flop- you have poor relative position to the PFR.

If the PFR cbets and the SB calls, raise.

If the PFR cbets and the SB folds, you could call and do a stop and go on a non-club turn or raise.

If the PFR checks it through, then if it’s checked to you on the turn, bet.

Mike,

Whether or not he folds AK isn’t such a big issue here, I don’t think. If you believe he will, that’s fine. But you will agree that AK is the only hand better than ours that will fold if you grant me that AJ is the only hand that we beat that might call our raise. Fair enough?

I guess my point is that we aren’t raising for value against the MP player on the flop. Really, we could make that play with any 2 against him. It wouldn’t really matter. Our hand has no value against any range he can continue with.

There is surely some merit to the c/r in that the SB is likely to come along light and we really would prefer not to play a turn 3-way. I just think it lets the MP player really punish us if he so chooses.

Jake,

I don’t mean to be a nit, but his relative position is fine, it’s his absolute position that is the problem.

I still prefer checking the flop and then calling if the sb doesn’t check-raise. I don’t want to lead and then face a raise.

If it gets check through, I’m bet-folding the turn. If not, then I’m going to check-call a non-scarey cards. With a scare card, I’ll have to see how the action goes.

In this hand I’m mostly worried about the bigger stack. I think the only way I’m really getting money in against him when I’m winning is if he’s doing the betting.

I don’t want to put a bunch of money in trying to get the SB all-in and have the big stack turn over a big hand on me.

I said “If it gets check through, I’m bet-folding the turn.” I’d like to retract that. Instead I mean this:

If it gets check through, I’m bet-folding the turn on a scare card. On a safe card I’ll bet-call. I’m probably check-calling the river either way.

I’d much rather bet the river than check-call in this hand unless he checks the flop. If he checks flop I think that puts his hands towards flush draws more than aces so I think I get more value out of inducing a bluff than getting worse aces, and other worse hands like middle pair, to call.

threads13,

How did we get to the river?

Hi Threads,

If it goes check/call, check/check I generally prefer to check/call the river against an aggressive villain. We have a good hand against his range and the villain will rep an A so often with that line even if he doesn’t have it. I really think most A’s are going to try to get two streets of value. It would be very hard for him to put us on AQ. I think I probably check to induce too much, though.

Are you thinking that he is going to check behind on the river if we don’t bet with his weaker A’s and 2nd pair hands? I think this is a matter of balancing the times he would bet with air vs the times he would check behind with 2nd pair on the river, but would still call a bet.

Todd,

I agree completely with you. The only reason I want to check raise the flop is to drive out the MP knowing he would only do so with a worse hand. I’m not interested in his money at all, its the SB I’m after. With MP safely out of the picture, I’m more comfortable committing against the SB.

Yes the MP can punish us, even with a worse hand, that’s the value of position, but that’s also why I wanted to 3 bet him preflop- to try driving him out cheaper.

As I said, if MP calls my flop check/raise, that would tell me he has a better hand, and I’m check-folding the Turn unimproved.

The biggest tragedy here would MP having a better hand, taking SB’s stack, then SB leaves the table and we never see him again.

…snip…
The biggest tragedy here would MP having a better hand, taking SB’s stack, then SB leaves the table and we never see him again.
…snip…

Well said sir, well said.

Guys,

I think he will check behind the river some portion of the time with his aces and definitely with his mid pair hands. I don’t want to see that happen because I think he calls with both of those hands a higher portion of the time when he bets the flop.

In the example where the flop is checked around I am assuming that we bet the turn and get called by the preflop raiser. In that case I would be more apt to check the river when the draws miss than if he were to bet the flop because I read him to have a busted draw a much higher percentage of the time.

In general, I like betting the river OOP unless I have a really good read that the guy will bluff and stuff like that because I think most players will make more calls on the river with hands than I beat than they will bluff hands that I beat(and check behind hands that I beat and then I’m missing value).

This is a tough situation, I would prefer not to get into it in the first place by 3betting preflop.

I’m out of position and I haven’t narrowed my opponents range down. At least if I 3bet and I meet resistance I know I don’t have them outkicked and am up against AK, AA or a bluff.

you made a strong play.

@ Declan:
So what is resistance to you?
That he 4-bets you and you have to fold? So then you “know” you folded to AK, AA or a bluff…
That he just calls your 3-bet, is that too “resistance”? So then you know you are playing this hand, which you have made way too big at this stage, against AK, AA or a bluff…
How does all this help you any?
I say, although this situation is “tough” is it a standard one that you cannot shy away from if you want to take your game to the next level…