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Hand Discussion #10: My Thoughts

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I played an interesting hand last week that I felt could have been approached in a number of ways. To refresh your memory, here’s the story so far:

I was on the button in a $2-$5 game. A reasonable player limped in. I had noticed earlier that he tended to bet more when he liked his hand and less when he didn’t. I made it $20 on the button with Q :spade: J :spade: . I had about $800, the limper had about $600, and the blinds both had about $500. Both blinds called. They were both moderately loose, but the two calls were a bit of a surprise.

The flop came A :club: K :heart: 6 :club: . The blinds checked, and the limper bet $15 into the $80 pot. What would you think about here? Would you fold, and if not, how would you plan the rest of the hand?

Here’s what I was thinking. I had a gutshot to the nuts, though one of the cards would put a possible flush on board. I had raised preflop, so I could reasonably be expected to have hit a flop of AK6. The bet was tiny (less than 1/5 pot), which would allow me a lot of flexibility. I also had the button, another plus for flexibility.

I had seen my betting opponent bet small several times with hands he was clearly unsure about. And twice I saw him come out swinging, and he showed up with sets both times. So I assumed that this small bet implied that my opponent was trying to figure out “where he was at” more than trying to disguise a monster. Since I had raised preflop, I thought the most likely hand for him was an ace, probably with at least a decent kicker (given past observations). I also thought a draw, particularly a small flush draw, was possible. And of course I didn’t rule out other hands like two pair, a set, or even a total bluff. I’d already seen him lay down top pair to significant betting twice. He showed his “big laydown” both times and the second time said, “I don’t have to gamble with you. I’ll just wait for a better situation.”

On the downside, his bet had squeezed me a bit, since there were two players remaining who could have checked a good hand to the raiser. But it was a small bet, so even if I called and it got raised behind me, it would be no disaster.

I didn’t really consider folding. The bet simply isn’t big enough. I have 3 outs to the nuts, I have position, I have credibility to represent a big hand, and I have someone who has already folded top pair a couple of times betting into me (and I figured top pair was his most likely hand here as well).

I thought about calling, and I thought about raising. There are two problems with raising, however. First, if I raise and then someone behind me shows up with a hand, I’ll have lost a lot. Second, this flop may not be scary enough to get my opponent to fold a hand like AQ or AJ. Perhaps he’ll worry about AK or a set, but perhaps he won’t. I was concerned that if I raised now and got called, I could end up unwittingly pot-committing him. It probably wasn’t a valid concern since we are reasonably deep, and he has folded top pair before in fairly juicy pots. But it’s a general thing to think about when considering a flop semibluff: If this bet isn’t enough to do the trick, but a future one might be, will my bluff accidentally build a pot so large that my opponent will feel compelled to call another bet? There’s nothing worse for a would-be bluffer than an opponent who says, “You gotta have me beat, but the pot’s just too big. I have to call.”

So weighing everything, I called. I figured that if the bettor had an ace like I suspected, the board was only going to get scarier for him. And if he had AT, maybe he’d catch two pair while I catch my straight. And if someone behind me put in a raise, I could fold and not lose the extra money I’d have to invest in a bluff-raise. Having the button allows you to make calls like this one, particularly against opponents who don’t make large enough bets.

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13 Responses to “Hand Discussion #10: My Thoughts”

Todd
@ Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:28:40 AM
1

Ed,

I think that calling the flop and turn made it easier to bluff when the club dropped on the end. If you had chosen to bluff the flop or turn, would you have fired again on the river when the club dropped? Seems like the line is less believable as a club draw at that point.

Thanks,

Todd

jamleeco
@ Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:18:26 PM
2

Todd, I don’t know if it would be that more unbeievable if they had seen him be aggressive and/or push flush draws earlier. But yeah, call,call, raise sure looks like a flush.

I don’t know if how genuine it looked would be a problem if he fired earlier as much as the size of the pot by the river.

One thing i liked about raising on the flop is if you get called, check the turn for a free card for gutshot draw and the flush draw comes in on the river, I think that’s a good opportunity for a bluff on the river as well. Looks like you raised for a free card, took it, and got there.

But I’m glad Ed brought up the pot committed point. I notice that when the stacks are shorter but should be looking more even with bigger stacks. PNLv1 has helped me evaluate that more consistently.

I thought that was a reason to raise on the flop, however, was to make them uneasy with pot commitment decision early in hand.

Ed,
Were the opponents observant enough to fear a flop raise more, thinking that you know you are squeezed with 2 behind and are raising anyway? Or would that be minimal difference in if it would work or not (the preflop raise, I mean)

il_professore
@ Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:50:21 PM
3

Todd… If I remember small stakes holdem about a river bluff, it only have to work ridiculously few times to be profitable! (one time on twenty… I dont remember exactly) so in my opinion, we dont care how this bluff would have worked on the river if we had raised the turn… just, its not a problem if the river bluff does not work everytime, its enough if it works sometimes to be profitable… moreover, raising the turn could make the pot so big that a donk will call with hopeless holdings while a timid player with strong holding could fold!

jamleeco
@ Fri Sep 28, 2007 02:22:36 PM
4

il-professore

That was a great book wasn’t it? It’s a little different here because that was a limit book and this is a nl hand. I don’t instantly recall the exact situation but that number would have reflected the size of the limit bet vs. the pot. In a limit game that is often around 1/20 the pot and so a bluff can have a relatively small chance of success and still be profitable. (5% chance being break even)

Here the pot is 225. Normally we would add Ed’s 40 for the call and then give the amount of the raise separately. But that wouldn’t apply here because of course nobody would call in this situation, to quote a line from Ed in T&P, ” you would have to be daft…” So he is risking 200 to win 225.

If his chance of success was 5% his EV would be 225-3800 = -3575/20= -$178 So this case is different. Ed’s bluff is saying here he figures it will work about 90% of the time or more. That’s why it’s great to follow him through a hand. I’m sure his estimation was very close to 100% , this is why reads are so important with the math.

Of course, you can also factor in the advertising value if you get called to offset your %’s some, but that’s beyond me. I would just think in the back of my mind that well, I do have that plus here if it fails.

I know this wasn’t a great explanation but if I said anything that was actually wrong someone please correct me so I am not giving out bad information.

il_professore
@ Fri Sep 28, 2007 02:28:10 PM
5

somebody remember how many times a guy must fold to my river bluff to make it profitable? i dont remember, but its a strikingly low number of times! I think more than one on six times. but quoting ed: “I thought a bluff was still profitable, as my opponents would likely fold at least half the time to a big raise.”

jamleeco
@ Fri Sep 28, 2007 03:31:33 PM
6

Yes, I’m an idiot. Wasn’t thinking. On this hand it would need to work 8 out of 17 times for break even. 8*225= 1800 9*-200=-1800 So chance of the bluff working should be estimated at 47% or better.

il, my point being that its not a static number, neither in limit nor no limit. It always depends on the size of the pot and the bet amount. Of course, MUCH easier to figure in limit as the bet amount is static. In no limit not only is the size not set, but your chances of success estimation will change with the size of the bet you think about bluffing with. whew, heady stuff, huh?

Man, some type of edit button like the message board and i would look smarter, but since I’m a self-confessed idiot it doesn’t matter. Even that might not save me. AND making a thoughtless mental error doesn’t hurt much when your typing and not betting =)

JJS
@ Fri Sep 28, 2007 03:56:25 PM
7

Thanks Ed for sharing your insights once again. I’m glad to see I had the right idea this time.

That guy who kept folding his cards face up seems like he was trying to impress the table with how great a player he was (look at me I make great laydowns). But all he was really doing was giving you information that helped you to beat him.

Ego always seems to get in the way in this game, doesn’t it?

il_professore
@ Sat Sep 29, 2007 05:59:13 AM
8

thank you jamleeco.

DucksTakinDownAKSuffer
@ Sat Sep 29, 2007 08:23:29 AM
9

On the flop I put villain on a flush draw.

But after Todd replied to me then I started thinking flush draw or weak ace.

And it was a weak ace!

It’s all about range… and Ed had his range pegged!

Based on bettor tendencies I do agree with Ed that the turn was a safer bluff option. The blinds showed weakness twice… and villain kept on betting weak.

Club on river is scarier bluff since the donkeys could be trying to slow play flush, and think that’s the right thing to do.

Todd
@ Sat Sep 29, 2007 09:35:52 AM
10

…snip…
I don’t know if how genuine it looked would be a problem if he fired earlier as much as the size of the pot by the river.
…snip…

…snip…
so in my opinion, we dont care how this bluff would have worked on the river if we had raised the turn… just, its not a problem if the river bluff does not work everytime
…snip…

It’s true that the bluff doesn’t need to work every time and that it is a good bluff if you have a good read on your opponent. I think it is a good idea, though, to have your hand tell a consistent story, especially if your active on the button. I like to think about planning my bluffs in the same way that I plan my made hands. What streets and cards can I credibly bluff on, has my prior action made it tough for me to bluff here, etc, etc. Certainly a flop raise, check behind for the free card and a river value bet on the flush card tells a good story if the UTG player can believe that you semi-bluff your draws. If he can’t imagine you’d play a hand that way, I think you end up getting called by AQ/AJ quite a bit from a thinking or skeptical player. In Ed’s case, this didn’t seem to be much of a problem. He could probably have made the pot big on any street and gotten the villain to lay it down (while muttering “one of these time I’m going to call him…”).

Speaking of bluffs. Matt Lessinger’s “Book of Bluffs” is really a good read for this sort of thing. One worth adding to your library.

http://www.amazon.com/Book-Bluffs-How-Bluff-Poker/dp/0446695629

excerpt here:

http://www.hachettebookgroupusa.com/books/69/0446695629/chapter_excerpt21884.html

Optisizer
@ Sun Sep 30, 2007 04:38:15 AM
11

Ed,
Your last post held one key phrase I wouldn’t mind seeing you elaborate on more in-depth, in a separate post.
The phrase:
“I figured that if the bettor had an ace like I suspected, the board was only going to get scarier for him.”
Why/how/when, could the board ONLY get scarier? What would the general situation/circumstance be for this to be the case? What would your general thinking process be to make use of that if you put your opponent on the Ace? What would your general thinking process be to counteract a thinking opponent when you’re the one with the Ace? How does your position influence your thinking?
Thanks,
T

Ed Miller
@ Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:20:33 PM
12

Optisizer,

I didn’t mean anything too profound when I said that the board was only going to get scarier. I was just referring to the fact that if you have top pair, particularly aces, very few cards can come that will make you like your hand better, and a number of scary cards can come.

For instance, if you have AT on an AK6 two-tone board, only a T makes you feel more confident about your hand, and even then you have to worry at least a little about QJ. An A is only marginally a good card, since if you’re outkicked on the flop, you’re still outkicked.

And naturally, straightening and flushening cards can come that will look scary. So often if I put someone on top pair, and I think they will fold it to pressure, I’ll wait until the turn or even the river to drop the hammer, hoping that I’ll get some help from a scary card.

lakedistrikt
@ Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:15:40 AM
13

Maybe its just my bad English. I dont quity understand the meaning of the paragraph:

“But I just called again. I was figuring the same upsides from the flop would carry over on the turn. And they would. But I think the downsides of an immediate raise are smaller, and that makes it the more attractive play.”

Does the “immediate raise” refer to a raise on the flop or a raise on the turn?!?

Great article anyway! Just love your articles and the different approach from much of the other poker material out there.

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