Hand Discussion #1: Flush Draw and Overcards from the Blinds

I think with two overs and a flush draw in the SB, I would bet into the board. I wouldn’t fear a raise from a late position raiser especially if there were one or two callers between. Against top pair, I’d be nearly fifty fifty. I think betting into the board is better than check raising because if the button bets and i raise, then i’d be pushing out other players and I wouldn’t want that because more players would mean more equity.

If I got raised on the flop, I’d probably check call the turn. If I didn’t get raised, I’d probably lead the betting if I thought I was against anything less than top pair or if a big card like a K came or a scary card like a 5 (if i thought it missed my opponent. On the river, I’d check call if I hit my pair (in this case the nine) but I’d bet if I hit my flush.

preflop: limp

flop: bet to protect against overcards or perhaps get called multiple times

turn (HU): bet/call to get better hands (overs, higher flush draw) to fold

river: check/call with top pair to induce bluffs and lose minimum against better hands

I don’t play LHE so the above is probably all wrong.

I also lead this flop from the small blind. I’m estimating about 10 outs.

8.5 for flush outs (It’s not to the nut flush)
1.0 for over cards (I don’t have a lot of faith in the 9)

and finally .5 for the back door 2 gap straight.

Our equity should be around 40% so I’m trying to initiate a jam session. Hopefully the other 3 players will all come along for the ride. If not, it should increase the value of the J and 9 slightly.

I really don’t like the check raise on the turn because of the 4 to a straight on board and our equity has dropped significantly from the flop. I prefer to check call this turn.

As played I lead this river as well. The button most likely would have lit us up with the straight so he likely has a pair smaller than our 9.

Since I elected to go passive on the turn, I would also check the river and call a bet. I check because I think the button continue to think he’s value betting his hand, but might fold a weaker hand if we bet into him.

I think with this flush draw I would bet it after the flop. Two reasons. First, although in a loose limit game you don’t get a good deal of info, it helps to tell where you are in the hand. If the button raises at that point, you can put him on something. The fact that he checked the flop suggests that he missed the flop but may have something, likely overcard(s). He may also be on the flush draw, although my Jack looks pretty good. I don’t have a pair, though, so if I can push him off (not likely) or get a feel (if he check raises me) I think that helps me either way. I agree also with what Eric says about the scare cards on the turn or river. Better to take it down quickly and/or establish dominance, given that I have a pretty strong hand. I think if he had tens or better he’d be raising me, so when the 9 hits on the river, I’m in good shape.

I would bet out on this flop because of my great equity, as wells as being one of the blinds, I could have easily hit this flop.

On the other hand after hero checked the flop, I do not mind his turn check-raise because he can easily represent having hit the straight here and button could easily be betting air.

I definitely valu-bet this river after not getting re-raised on the turn.

my first hand analysis! :
i want as many bets as possible on the flop because i have a pot equity edge, so… if i think either of the 2 players to my left might raise me and chase someone away, i check, and if i think the button may raise (and they won’t), i bet hoping to get 2 from everyone. representing the straight makes sense to me against one player, but check raising the turn regularly on a draw seems like an expensive way to lose most of the time. in this case, though…good one!

I’d lead/3 bet this flop if I got more than 1 caller because my equity is great. Pushing off a better 9 or J is good as well.

I’d lead the turn if I got only one caller and check/call if more. I don’t really like turn c/r because button probably has pair/draw combination and is not folding.

River bet is a must.

wow don’t stand a chance to get to these early because of time difference, still only 9:13am here.

anyway

Preflop : good call getting 7 to 1 can’t really fold this, unless you expect the button may raise.

On the flop : I normally play full ring games and would rais ethis simply for value if I had at least 2 people I expected a call from howveer having checked I might have considered the check raise hen the button bet as you have stated it is a loose aggressive table and so he could simply be betting because he is on the button.

Turn : this is a call 8 full outs and overcards.

River : against a loose passive table I would have bet but I would consider check calling here as I believe a bet for value needs a stronger hand against a loose aggresive table.

Peter L
My Blog

After giving it more thought, I don’t like leading the river at all. I don’t think I’m going to get called by any hand that I can beat. It’s not for value if I can’t win. With the turn check raise we put him on notice that we have a strong hand. While button might put us on a semi-bluff some % of the time he has to respect the strength we just exhibited.

However if I check button might decided that his A7 is indeed good and toss out a bet allowing a call to earn an additional bet if ahead and minimizing losses if he has a ragged 2 pair or some other strange flop holding.

For those of you advocating leading the river, what is your plan if you’re raised here?

I agree with betting out on this flop. There is a decent chance you can pick up the pot right here, and if not, you have plenty of outs. This changes the way the rest of the hand plays out.

As played, I really don’t like the c/r on the turn. It is an extremely small pot and you often won’t get a fold here. You could have led out on the turn and I wouldn’t dislike that nearly as much.

Against two opponents I would probably lead out the flop. Against 3, I think it’s best to play this draw passively and just check and call. We will still have the opportunity to semi-bluff on the turn if the pot suddenly becomes heads up (as it did), and if there’s a bet and a call or two on the flop, and we get there on the turn then there’s a good chance we can trap the field for an extra bet or two that we wouldn’t have gotten by leading the flop or bet-3-betting. Really our best case scenario by leading the flop is to get it heads up, I think it’s about 100-1 that we win the pot outright, and since the pot is small… I’m not so worried about protecting my overcard outs.

As played, I think the turn line is pretty standard. We’re really just hoping villain is good enough to fold 1-pair with no re-draw, or fold better flush draws on the river if we both whiff. Betting out is just too easily called down by suscipious players, so I’m ruling that out.

The river decision is the toughest in the hand, IMO. Since we made the turn c/r with the assumption that villain would likely fold weak one pair hands (except for some top pairs and overpairs), and that he could also have a draw with better showdown value, I think the best play here is to check and induce a bet. The turn card really is the most deciding factor by my decision here, a mere blank on the turn and I’m likely betting the river for value against typical opponents (without a read). But on average I think villian is going to tend to check behind on the turn with his hands that have showdown value (made hands) and just flat call a river bet, but he would continue to bet with the nuts (or close to it) and semibluffing hands.

I actually think the hand was played fairly well. Its an interesting line, with the turn raise and all, but I like it.

I don’t think a flop bet is mandatory either. I don’t think betting is a bad play, but checking and seeing how the action plays out behind you with your draw seems perfectly fine.

There are only 4 bets in the hand, the pot is small. There are two choices -

1) Bet into the pot. Downside is that this pot is likely to get raised by anyone who has any piece or possibly draw (remember there are two straight draws is out there). Many players might call a bet with a straight draw and an overcard even though they might be incorrect to do so, but they are less likely to bet into the flop with a draw.

2) Check, with the intention of raising a late position better. This is the better of the two main options although it risks giving a free card. As played when the button bets his hand range is very wide. The hero is getting 5:1 when he is 4:1 against making his flush (overcards are also legitimate outs we assume), the c/r places great pressure on the villain who might be stealing the pot, and forces out any possible draws besides the button.

Haven’t read the reply’s yet as I didn’t want to influence my decision.

I’d raise the flop. I figure you’d have approx 10 outs and pretty good equity. So. raise the flop.

As played
- the call on the flop is o.k.
- The turn check raise is interesting but sketchy. If he re-raises you have to throw the hand away and you don’t get any information and it costs you 2 big bets. but it does setup the river raise.
- Not sure about the raise on the river as you probably won’t get called by worse hands here (with the 4 card str draw out).

Preflop, completing the small blind is good. I would lead the flop; we have a lot of equity in the pot with our flush and overcards. We might take the pot down, which would be best, and if we can’t take it down, we want to get money in the pot when we’re 35-40 percent or so to win. As played, I think it is close on the flop between going for overcalls and check-raising to thin the field.

I think the turn CR is hard to analyze with no reads. If he’s a calling station, it’s obviously terrible. It’s a great play against someone who will quicky dump an ace high or a small pair. We don’t know anything about the button, so it’s probably somewhere between great and terrible. He overlimped preflop at an aggressive table, so we can safely say he doesn’t have AK or 99-AA. The smaller pairs and connectors are the more likely part of his range, and this board hits a lot of small pairs and connected cards. I’d be pretty worried once he calls the turn check-raise. He’s got to put you on a straight, but he called anyway. I don’t think I agree with your plan of betting the river no matter what hits. You’d have to put him on an ace high or a pair that he’s willing to fold, and I think that’s an iffy proposition in this spot. Having said that, the nine is a great card for you to bet. If he called the turn with a smaller pair, he’s going to call again. He might even call with ace high. If he has a set,two pair or even a stiff six, he’ll probably bet if you check to him, but he’ll have a hard time raising you.

So, to summarize, I think if you bet or check-raise the flop, the hand becomes easier to play on later streets. I wouldn’t attempt the turn check-raise without a good read on your target. Once he calls the turn check-raise, I think automatically betting the river is a mistake. You’d have to hope he called your bluff with a gutshot and is now willing to fold. I think that’s iffy.

I love the turn raise for these reasons:

1) There are many conceivable hands you would complete with that include a 6 (which made a straight on turn).

2) check raising the turn is what most people do with made hands. Flop check raises are not given the same respect. Also a semi-bluff would be more typical on flop if someone has 2 spades. Therefore, this does not look like a semi-bluff.

What to do on the river depends on if you think you are beat. In this case, I don’t think there is much risk of getting raised on the river because you weren’t raised on the turn. So the river is a value bet. I tend to check and induce a bluff here and expect I might see a high pair or a muck. With the right reads, I might value bet.

As to the alternative lines.

I probably wouldn’t semi-bluff at all even headsup on the turn if I thought the player was an ultimate ’showdown monkey,’ but this is one of the topics that I cannot wait for Stoxtrader’s book to be released as he addresses the issue of semibluffing loose players and hands with showdown value, which is definitely something I need to look at in my hands. Also seems to me like the river bet against someone who’s WSD is around 40-45, it would be a good time to bet the river for value (assuming they aren’t overly tricky/aggressive).

Ed, I think you’ve got enough responses, we’re dying to hear how you would play the hand and the alternatives…talk about the meat, we can have another hand tomorrow for those who weren’t able to stop by the page in time

Silly said: “- The turn check raise is interesting but sketchy. If he re-raises you have to throw the hand away”

I don’t think you should be folding in a 6 BB pot fofr 1 bet with a flushdraw. You’ve easily got odds against top set or a straight there.

If CRing the turn is a mistake, its miniscule in comparison to folding to a 3 bet.

I would’ve raised on the flop seeing that the game was loose and aggressive i had a J high flush draw which would probably win against those loose players. Also, I’d be protecting my hand in case an A or K or king or a higher possible flush was out there. I think that calling instead of raising invited some player to drawing out on him in case he missed the flush but made pair with J or 9.

Mike. Thanks for your comments. I didn’t realize the pot was 6BB’s at this point.

Ed,

Thanks for your comments! Now I have a question, assuming a situation like hand #1 up to the flop. Lets say I call the raiser on the flop and then there are 2 limpers behind me (well, that’s probably what i wanted with that strong flush draw) But then a non-spade A (or K or Q) comes on the turn. Well, I’m getting good odds to call, but since I’m early, I bet myself and everyone calls. I’m thinking I wouldn’t try a check raise here because someone behind me is going to probably bet with a pair of aces and the check-raise/semi-bluff won’t work to protect my hand. (Is this thinking correct?)

Now, there’s a high likelihood with 4 players that someone has a pair of aces, so I’m praying for another spade on the river. Lets say all 3 limpers call my bet (now there are 8BB if my calc. are correct). The river is J, giving me midpair. Well, now I’m thinkng “dammit! if I had raised preflop, I would probably have folded the probable Ace-rags out there and now I’d probably be the best hand”. Now, being first position on the river, I’m thinking the correct play would be check-fold?

Ok, thanks, I do understand that calling the flop has greater expectation with a small pot. Now, I know this is debatable but, how many bets would you consider a big enough pot that you would switch your play on the flop to a raise?

The other thing I wanted to ask you. I posted my last name on a post on hand #1 and one post on hand #2. I was wondering if it is possible to erase my last name from there and just keep my first name.