Message Board : Trying to master full ring live game and on line

Pop the cork. It is whine time.

I think I have done pretty well at tournaments; I am still ahead money. So I decided to tackle 2 - 5 live games and on line (now playing much lower!).

I played on the Belle in Baton Rouge, bought in twice at $300 per, and got busted twice by flaky pre-flop calls. One guy called my 5xBB bet with 8-6o, and hit both while I, with A-K hit an K on the flop for TPTK. The other guy raised 5xBB with JJ, I raised to $75 with A-A, and he flopped J-7-7, and I got busted. My buddy who plays regularly there said, “If they go all-in, they haveit.” I wish he'd told me that before I starte instead of after.

Played in a live game in Natchez and got busted out in the first two hands. In the first with TPTK a guy went all in with a four to a flush after the flop and hit it. The next guy, with me holding TPTK, put me all-in and busted me with a set he made on the flop. Okay, that's just poker, I guess.

I played another live game and won $350.00 in about an hour and had to leave.

The last live game was a minimum $300 buy-in. I bought in for $500.00, and played my usual tight aggressive game. I doubled up against the toughest player there when I made the nut flush on the turn, and acting before him, checked knowing how aggressive he was. I got it all in when I reraised and he called with a smaller flush.

Then, with an $1100 stack, I sat there and lost every single penny after telling myself, “I rode with a friend who is quitting early; all I have to do is sit here and be really tight and I'll leave with money.” But I dribbled it away in hands similar to the one when I raised pre-flop with A-Qo, the flop was 889, made a contiuation bet, which was called, the turn was 9, I checked, he bet, I called, and the river was a blank. He threw in a further $200, and the pot odds were right to call. I thought he was bluffing anyway. He said, “I have the idiot full house,” expecting me to have the big one.

On line I sit there and play tight aggressive and build up my stack over an hour or so. Then, I will get sucked out on, which is poker, or I will get involved in hands against loose players when I have, for instance, A-Ko, miss the flop to something like J,6, 2, make a C-bet, and get raised. Well, it's just ace high so I lay it down.

Sometimes in similar situations I make the C-bet, but they are first to act, and when I miss the flop, they raise. I do a lot of laydowns.

But, there are the times when I see a player doing this or coming over the top too much, and I call or reraise. They always seem to have it then!

And, nobody yet has told me how to get out of the way when I have aces and kings and they have a set.

Heck, once in one hour I lost with two full houses to two sets of quads!

In fifteen minutes I had QQ, raised, next guy called, the third raised, and I ended up all in against Aces. A few hands later with KK, it was the same deal: he had Aces. About five hands after that I get A-A and min raise to get action and everyone folds. Everybody!

Look, for whatever reason, I am a net loser in live games and ring games on the internet. On the internet I have contiually lowered my stakes — not to keep from losing big money, but to garner experience without forking all the money. It doesn't seem to make any difference if I am playing on line in $2 - $5, $0.10 - $0.25, or, God forbid, $0.05 - $0.10, I continually lose.

Damn it, it is not about the money for me. At least not yet and not at this level. I am fortunate to have earned enough money so that I could play like an idiot. But I don't want to. I won't. Unfortunately, the money is the yardstick by which success is measured, and I am coming up short. I am willing to keep going and losing if I can believe that there is light at the end of the bad beats, crappy play on my part, and the hard work I put into it.

Now, I am not the smartest apple in the orchard, but I am a long way from the dumbest. I won my state chess championship the first of three times in a row in my fourth year of playing. I went on to run two successful businesses, and I invest successfully in hedge funds. I have always thought that controlling risk in poker was similar to the same thing in business and the stock market. Am I wrong?

Now, I am in my fourth year of poker, and I am disappointed, depressed, disgusted, and disillusioned about my prospects for learning the game. I have read all the books — except Ed's on cash game, and it is on the desk for next. I have read most of them two and three times. It seems to me, that luck is a much greater component of this game than I had imagined.

I am not a quitter, but I'd like to see some progress in the ring games like I had in tournaments. I know this is a whiny, long, winding message, and I doubt it will do anybody any good except me, by letting me let off steam. But, if there is any advice except the sort that goes, “Just stay with it” “don't give up the fight” “You'll get there eventually” etc., I'd like to hear it.

Sorry. I'm through.

Not yet. I cannot stand losing. I am a bad loser. I don't care what it is, I just can't take losing. And NL Hold'em is the toughest nut I have ever tried to crack.

Now I am through.

Natcheztoo — Jerry Krouse

tobori,

Thanks for your sympathetic comments. The “edge” gained by hard work and study must be smaller than I thought. And the “luck factor” must be much greater than I imagined.

I've got a friend that used to be a “house player” (they paid him $25.00 per hour plus benefits to play, but the wins and lossess were all his) in one of the poker clubs or casinos in Los Angeles. He knows his stuff and played out there for several years.

I have “confession” with him. That is where we discuss strategy, hands, and bad beats, etc. In one of these I was alluding to the fact that some of the pros who had mastered the game did well in the big tournaments. He told me, “A lot of those guys are gambling addicts and degenerates. I have been around them.” He went on to talk about one player whose name I will not repeat here, but you would recognize him, and he has won at least one major tournament and made the final table in others. He said, “The last time I saw him was in the men's room at the Commerce Casino and he was trying to sell me his CD collection to raise enough money to get back in the game.”

I am really discouraged, but like you, I am not quitting yet. I never gambled on anything outside of business decisions and investments in my life — until I started playing Texas Hold'em NL. And I really thought that wouldn't be gambling after I learned the game. So, I am still trying. But when and if I decide or learn that it really is gambling after all, I will probably give it up.

As I said before, I am not playing for the money. It really is more of a mental challenge and for bragging rights, and the winnining of money is the measuriing stick of success.

Good luck! I think we both need it.

Natchez Too

There is the “x” factor previously mentioned. I think it's the ability to apply your knowledge at the table and execute. We've all seen clearly weaker players be successful at limits where we struggle. They probably know less than you do, but they can execute, and you cannot.

I recognize this syndrome because it's my problem too. I hope we can learn to overcome this. I just know someone is going to answer “practice”. I don't know who that someone's going to be, but I will feel the need to sit on them

j831526 said:
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and they don’t even know they are “executing”. not to rag on her but for example my wife (an “aggressive” calling station ????) thinks that when there is a pair of tens on the board and a
4 on the board pairs a 4 she has in the hole that she has a strong hand of 2 pair. sure- 2 pair
but strength- no. i tell her everyone has the board tens and her reply is “well i don’t care about
the math” (i’m serious). so she bets many sub-marginal hands strong not having the experience or
study to really have a clue “where she stands”.

so i see her overplay these hands and if everyone folds to a bet of hers she shows her cards
because she knows they want to see her hand and she obliges. she wants them to know she
bet a “strong” hand and does not understand she is rubbing a bluff in their face. she is very pleasant about it and players don’t know where she is coming from.

my reason for bringing this up is that often she will actually accumulate a substantial amount
of chips EARLY in the session. when she gets her good hands she gets action.at showdown she will suck out often enuf and/or show cards that all can see should never have been played (and
weren’t used to bluff with). once the “cat is out of the bag” her bets carry no real fold equity and others value bet her out of her money.

the thing is that i recocnize something resembling an “x factor” in her game- or see that her
“incorrect” play seems to make money while she still has fold equity. her play has people off
ballance until they see she just doesn’t have a clue. (she has only played 12 times).

the parts of her game that my game doesn’t have which seem to make money are playing more hands, playing the marginal hands stronger, bluffing more with advertizing. more LAG less TAG.

i think the x factor has to do with faith. at low stakes ($1-2 to $2-5 live) i don’t see much bluffing.
i think the reason is that we are taught it is important, try it early in our experience, fail because of both lack of timing/feel and the fact that bluffs do fail so we rarely try. the good players are the ones that develope the timing and feel thru play and study and then force themselves to start shoving some major bluff money out there. if you have faith that our poker teachers are correct that such
tactics will increase win rates then you take those painful falls over and over as that is the only
way to learn that and other tactics.

i think the x factor has to do with accepting initial failure (loss of hard earned cash) when trying
new tactics you are told will win. it is hard for some (like myself) to call a maniac with what we consider very marginal cards. you finaly get the nerve and he has pocket aces. you know he will have good hands sometimes and have to continue to play against his range every hand because
you just don’t know which are solid and which absolute trash.

anyway i better get something out of her game because it’s costing me. i’ve played 4 big pots
against her and the only one i wasn’t stacked in was when i soft played her on the river so that
she wouldn’t be out of money and make me quit playing- so i got to keep $50 in that one.

tobori