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4:41 pm
December 26, 2007
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Natcheztoo
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This is from the fourth to last tournament of this year for the Championship of Big Al’s Poker Club, Pool Hall, Oriental Massage Parlor, and Adult Movie Theater:
Last night, Thursday, December 6, 2007, I was prepared not to play in the Big Al’s Tournament under two conditions: 1) if there were 10 players or less, and 2) if George and Al did not play. Al had been sick and George has been working long and hard at UPS deliveries. Either or both could have missed. In the first case, since my average on the lower leaderboard, the “average points scored per outing leaderboard,” was 9.563, George or Al would have had to come in first to gain only a tiny fraction of a point on my average. They could not have surpassed me under the circumstances. In the second case, there would have been no reason to play and risk scoring less than my 9.563 average when neither of my two closest competitors was there. Alas, though, they both showed up and there were seventeen players, nine on my table. I was forced to play. The lower "average points scored leaderboard" was so close that if I didn’t play and either George or Al scored two or three points over my 9.563 average, they would have taken over the lead of the lower leaderboard. The top leaderboard consisting of total cumulative points was more secure; I had a 43 point lead before the tournament started.
I folded the blinds twice when they came by me. I had t3925 of my original t4000. In the cutoff seat I looked down to see snowmen, 8-8. There were a few limpers, so I limped too hoping to hit a set.
The flop was 8, 7, K rainbow! I had hit the set!
Everybody checked around to Ritchie Montgomery who put in a raise of 300. Ritchie had lost a hand or two and had about t3550. He had something. Or did he? Ritchie, loose-aggressive, is capable of betting at the pot without anything. Everybody folded around to me, and I had to stop and think: How should I play this hand? Smooth call, or put in a small raise of, say, about another 300? Or bet more?
Everybody, tell me how to play this. I will reveal the turn and river as we go. Natchez Too (Jerry)
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5:39 am
December 27, 2007
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Todd
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You need to stick in a raise somewhere to get all-in by the river. The board isn’t too drawy. You could raise on the flop or turn. I think I’d raise the flop to something like 1000. Then 1200 on the turn leaves you a 1/2 pot bet on the river.
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7:22 am
December 27, 2007
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DonkStar
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What is YOUR table image? How will this raise be perceived? Are you a player who could raise on a draw? Or only when you hit big? Or somewhere in between? I’ll assume you are solid player, capable of raising here with anything from total garbage to a set of kings.
In the absence of that information, I won’t be adding much of value, as I am in full agreement with Todd, if all things are equal. He has mapped a perfectly reasonable bet line that could get a nice big K to go broke. With tighter player, I might try raising the turn, as I would hate to lose value. Your description of the villian sounds like there is a excellant chance he will call the flop raise, so stick a 3-bet in, and start growing the pot. Play your big hands big.
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9:59 am
December 27, 2007
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Natcheztoo
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My image at this table is tight aggressive. When I make a good sized raise, especially before the flop, somone at the table always says: You know if Jerry bet that much he has something.
The turn:
I finally opted for a smooth call. I was deathly afraid of running him off and ending up with a small pot. In retrospect, I doubt that he would have run if I had reraised to 600. Maybe he would have stayed for more.
All the limpers folded and the pot was now 950. The turn was a 3c, and Ritchie bet 400 chips.
What do I do now?
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11:14 am
December 27, 2007
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DonkStar
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You pretty much have to raise now, or the pot will never get to where you want it. If he has a weak K, he may fold, and obviously that’s going to happen sometimes. The 1200 raise now leaves you with about a 2/3 pot bet on the river, not as desirable as the 1/2 pot bet, but it is what is it is at this point.
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1:33 pm
December 27, 2007
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Natcheztoo
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Next…
Now there were 1350 chips in the pot; it was getting serious and interesting. No matter what Ritchie may or may not have had I could not let him have another free card. I only had two choices: a big raise or to move all-in. I was greedy. I wanted more chips in the pot. I didn’t want him to fold so I came over the top with a reraise. I said, “I reraise. Make it 1500 to go.” That was a raise of 1100 chips over Ritchie’s 400 chip bet. The pot was now 2450.
Ritchie fidgeted and said, “I know you are sitting over there beating me with trips.” I kept quiet and still. Now I knew I had the best hand, and I was hoping for a call. Finally he made the mistake and shoved the extra 1100 chips in the pot, which had now risen to 3550. The winner of this pot was going to do well tonight. Still, I wondered if I shouldn’t have gone all-in. And if I had, would he have folded. Maybe he actually had a set of Kings.
The River… The river was the Kh, and my stomach immediately contracted. I turned to the dealer on my left and said quietly, “I wish you wouldn’t have put that K out there.” Ritchie went into an act, and finally mumbled, “Well, I guess I might as well go all-in.” The K on the river had given me 8’s full of K’s, and I couldn’t lay it down. He might have two pair or a trip Kings. So, nervously, very nervously, since an entire year of hard work was on the line, I called. I had 400 chips left after the call. Ritchie said, “I’ve got a full house.” I hoped he had a set of 7’s and K’s. My Granny always said, “Spit in one hand and hope in the other. See which one fills up first.” Ritchie showed K’s full of 7’s. He’d flopped two pair, Ks and 7s, and had sucked out on the river. Despair sunk in as I turned over my 8’s and K’s. As Ritchie was raking in my former chips I said, “I should have gone all-in after the turn and run you out.” He replied, “I wasn’t going anywhere. I had two pair.” That was when the cruel reality of what brought me down sunk in. I told him, rather pointedly, “That’s the right thing to do. Ride two pair to the river.” If I had not been trying to control my emotions and trying not to teach people how to play poker I would have said: “Yeah, that was a great play. You called my bet after the turn with the worse hand. In fact the second worse hand in poker. The pot odds had to be higher than 22-1 for you to have made a correct call since the odds of you hitting one of the two Ks in the deck was 22-1 against. You incorrectly called a big bet with the worst of it and only had a 5% chance of hitting a winning card. That means, that if you and I played that hand, or similar hands, 1000 times I would win 950 of them and you would win 50 of them.” I know how he would have answered. “Well, I won.” I am a poker player and Ritchie is a gambler.
I started to be charitable and say that, maybe, he just didn’t know better. But he sat there and put me on a set out loud for the whole table to hear. So, he pretty much knew what I had. Yep, he is a gambler.
I guess the question and the point of this exercize is: Should I have gone all-in after the turn?
Everybody I talked to here said Ritchie was fully capable of calling that all-in with two pair whether it was correct or not.
The upshot of all this is: Tonight, Thursday, December 27th, I have to score 3 or more points above my two closest competitors to win the Championship on both leaderboards. If not, there will be a vote tonight to determine whether the two "champs" will have a best 2 of 3 heads-up match to determine the "true" champ.
I believe I am a better player than my two competitors, but in poker anything can happen. Even if it is two out of three.
Natcheztoo
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2:33 pm
December 27, 2007
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DonkStar
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…snip
I guess the question and the point of this exercize is: Should I have gone all-in after the turn?
…snip
No. Even with 2 pair, you WANT him all in, regardless of the small percentage of the time he is going to suck out on you. I think that if there is a chance he folds top and 3rd pair on the turn (regardless of his posturing), that a raise on the flop or turn, is a much preferred play. A set on a rainbow flops win so often, that you are rarely if ever looking for a fold. You want him to get all his chips in every time. It unfortunate that so much was on the line for a single hand, but the results are not what really matters here.
Your raise was good, and he still went all in drawing to a 2 outer….exactly the situation you want.
Best of luck in the final showdown.
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3:50 pm
December 27, 2007
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Todd
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Moving in on the turn is silly. Bad beats happen.
That K wasn’t really that bad a card for you, all things considered. I happily go broke in that situation every time. Well, maybe happily is strong. But he’s going to get his stack in on any K. KT or KJ are much more likely than K7, K8 or K4. Certainly K8 since you hold 2 8s.
I would say this, when you oppenents can immediately put you on a set when you raise, you don’t raise enough. As you grow your game, you may want to work in more semi-bluffs, check raises with top pair, raises on bad boards, etc. These tactics will win you pots in their own right and will help you get paid off on your truly big hands.
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9:37 am
December 28, 2007
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Natcheztoo
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Todd, DonkStar, and others,
I hope you all look at this again, as I now need new instructions and help, because…
I got hammered last night (blinds were 300 - 600, 6 players at the table, I open pushed for 3,700 with KsQs, and everyone folded to the last player who woke up with A-A) and now am facing the best 2 of 3, heads-up, playoff against the leader of the lower leaderboard for the championship.
I have, of course, done some study of playing heads up, and have no doubt that my opponent has not. I have noticed somewhat of a dichotomy between the way Harrington teaches in HOH II and the way Colin Moshman teaches in Sit ‘ n Go Strategy. Harrington seems to advocate using raises of 2 1/2 the BB from the button. Moshman’s strategy seems to be much more aggressive with more all-ins.
Following are the salient points about the heads-up match, which will take place on Monday, probably. I’d like any advice about how I should try to prepare for this match in the interim, and your sage advice as to how I should actually play.
Opponent: He is loose/passive, but once in a hand, if he has anything tends to be a rock. I have seen him call pre-flop bets of 3xBB with K-x (6-7-8o, etc. or better). If he hits on the flop he is hard to budge. His betting is usually a series of same size bets, e.g. if he bets 200 chips after the flop and has something he will bet 200 after the turn, and probably 200 after the river. I have seen him stay in hands too long chasing straights and flushes. I have also seen him play suited cards, connected or otherwise, trying to hit a flush or flush draw. Sometimes, when he has shown down a weak starting hand and has been questioned about it he says, "I’m going to see a flop." On occasion I have been able to bluff him off a hand in high blind play. Once when he limped in high-blind play from the small blind, I raised to take the blinds. He called my 3xBB bet with K-xo, hit the K, and though there was an A on the board he called my flop and turn bets. I surrendered after that.
The Tournament: There will be t4000 in starting chips. The starting blinds will be 100 - 200, and will double every ten minutes. These are all "in stone" and cannot be changed.
So, ye powerful palladins of poker, please direct me how to study for this and how to play against this opponent.
Thanks in advance,
Natchez Too (Jerry)
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3:32 am
December 30, 2007
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wallenborn
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Disclaimer: i suck at heads-up play. So feel free to ignore me.
I was going to write something about playing bigger pots in position than out of position, and milking a loose-passive opponent, but then i saw what you wrote about the structure: you’re going to start with only 20 BBs, and the blinds are going to rise fast. That should dominate your planning.
So you don’t have much room to outplay him, and you don’t have much time to outwait him. Fortunately, your opponent seems to be very predictable post-flop. So in the first level, i would like to see every flop in position. I’d try to limp every non-premium hand on the button. If he doesn’t let you limp T4o, switch to folding the bottom 30%, and minraise everything else. Don’t play much out of position. If he limps, great, but if he opens with a raise, throw most hands away.
If you miss the flop, don’t hang yourself. If the pot is small, take one stab, but if that would cripple you, preserve your chips and shut down. You’ll need something like top pair good kicker, or a pocket pair with
one overcard to be ahead of his postflop call-down range. Hit that, and
value-bet him mercilessly.
After the blinds go up, you’ll eventually have to switch to pushfold strategy. You probably are aware of that. If not, google "poker sage system", that will lead you to a system that can be memorized, is not too complicated, and kinda decent.
What i can’t tell you: when to switch strategies. If your opponent is as bad as you say, you’ll want to play pots in position as long as possible. But when you’re running out of room, switch to pushbotting and don’t look back.
Good luck!
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11:20 am
December 30, 2007
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Natcheztoo
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Thank you Wallenborn,
Yesterday I played a series of matches with one of the stronger players in the club. He won the first 2, I won the next 3, he won the next 4. 6 -3.
It was shocking how fast the play went. I came to the conclusion that it will be mostly luck of the draw that decides this, saddly.
As they say: "Those were the cards I was dealt.: So, I’ll have to play them.
Ironically, the club voted to make next year’s championship contingent on only one thing: money won. It’s too bad that I, dummy that I am, did not think to have the "money leaderboard" as a tie breaker this year. This whole mess would have been settled if the "club" had gone for it.
Thanks again,
Natcheztoo (Jerry)
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