Message Board : sweetening the pot: why? when? how?

Every once in a while I hear someone saying that he raised preflop with DRAWING hands like ATs- to sweeten the pot. Personally I think that this is wrong, but I’d like to learn more about it and adjust in case I am mistaken.

I’ll give you my reasons NOT to raise and am hoping to hear good arguments why, when and how raising makes sense:

First of all, my definition of "sweetening the pot" is this: a PF raise with the intention of getting several callers in order to build a medium to big pot preflop. This excludes steals! Usually there will be limpers already and the raise will be between 1BB to 4BB (added to the 1BB you would need to just call). I am also talking about DRAWING hands only!

In general any raise that is intented to get called (value raise) should have a positive expectation, meaning that my chance of winning are greater than my relative share of the money that I put in. Therefore the only drawing hands that I think where a PF raise makes sense are suited connectors, because you may hit a flush OR a straight.

a) suited aces (ATs-): 

I usually make good money with small suited aces from players that shouldn’t have been in the pot in the first place. They hit something on the flop and cannot let go afterwards. A PF raise might drive them out, so I do NOT raise. I will hardly drive out any better aces, so there’s not much sense in spending money for the attempt. I might also drive out KT, QT, JT, T9 when I hold ATs, but I got them outkicked, so why do it?

b) suited kings (KQs to K9s):

I tend to raise here, but not to build a big pot. I want to drive out hands that might hurt me in case I make top pair. I also want to put pressure on folks with a (suited) ace, especially the one of my suit. Second, I gain fold equity on the flop, making it harder for people to call me when a king (or ace) comes.

c) unsuited connectors:

It’ just too unlikely to hit the straight to justify putting any more money in PF.

Fire away folks! :) 

BTR said:

Small pocket pairs in position vs several limpers.  I’m not raising big, in fact raising enough that they can’t possibly consider folding.  I’m sweetening the pot so that if I hit my set I will have an easier time getting my money into the center.

Axs - same thing, I’m not trying to pair my kicker or even my A.  I might even fold my A on the flop if someone leads out.  I’m trying to make a big hand and I’m bumping the pot to make it easier to get my money into the center. 

Suited connectors - same thing.

Given that, here’s a question. Let’s say you raise from the button after four limpers with one of these speculative hands. Let’s also say that everyone is playing with 100BB stacks. You get a number of callers, and then a player (but NOT the first limper) puts in a big re-raise. He probably has a so-so hand like yours and would just like to pick the pot up now. Which of those pot-sweetening hands do you consider calling (or raising) with?

I raise relentlessly in position when limped to.  I raise my whole range.  With my good hands I’m building a pot.  With my speculative hands I’m building a platform to bluff from.

If I’m raising 46s, I sure as heck am raising ATs.  Limpers deserve your disdain.  The button deserves your respect.  Don’t disrespect the button by limping.  Don’t coddle the limpers by limping behind.

threads13 said:

Todd, that is a bit one-dimensional for you.  Certainly you agree that there are times to limp behind a few limpers.  A couple ones that come to mind is if you have something like 75s against a loose player who is going to be committed if he flops any pair.  Another would be with a loose player in the blinds and a couple loose limpers with something like 22.  Basically, you don’t want to try for steals without steal equity.

It is one dimensional on purpose.  In general, I think it is a mistake to let limpers off the hook.  I stronly believe that.  People overlimp way too much.  They don’t need more reasons to limp.  They can figure that out on their own.  So, I make a very strong case for not limping.

Of course there are times to limp.  But the more poker I play, the fewer of those are left in my game.  I almost never limp now playing 6-max.  There is a little more room for limping in FR, but not on the coveted button.  That remains disrespectful.

If there is a short stack in one the blinds that might push given provocation, then I might limp with a nice, speculative hand.  This is a very good example of a limpable situation.

But, unless the guy is never going to fold at any point in the hand, I am going to play my whole range for a raise almost always.  I need a good reason not to raise a hand I intend to play when limped to, not the other way around.  It’s true that you don’t have steal equity preflop, but once you start making the pot big, you create a lot of fold equity on post-flop streets.  I think this is really underestimated.  Much of the punishment comes on the flop and river.  If you play you hand like top or second pair and use a raise pre/bet/check/bet line in position, that third bet is really hard to call with bottom pair or K high because it is big.  If you play a punishing game in position, you need to start pre-flop.

I agree with all of this, Todd.  I just get a nervous feeling in my stomach when "never" gets used.  I raise a majority of my hands that are unraised to me on the button.  Probably at least 80%… maybe 90-95%. 

Greyzy said:

Todd said:

It’s true that you don’t have steal equity preflop, but once you start making the pot big, you create a lot of fold equity on post-flop streets.  I think this is really underestimated.  Much of the punishment comes on the flop and river.  If you play your hand like top or second pair and use a raise pre/bet/check/bet line in position, that third bet is really hard to call with bottom pair or K high because it is big.  If you play a punishing game in position, you need to start pre-flop.

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Very interesting, Todd! I wonder if this can be apllied to my home game where people limp a LOT (from 8 to 10 guys I am usually the only one folding). People like to draw and often fold on the river, so I wonder if raise (PF)/bet/check/bet would be the right thing top do here.

 

Would you still advocate a turn check, allowing them to see 2 cards after calling a flop bet?

 

My problem usually is that the pot gets pretty big compared to my stack very fast. According to "big pots deserve big hands" I have a hard time putting in a big portion of my stack even when I whiff. On the other hand I don’t want to be too readable and only get called by sets etc.

 

BTW in our house game you can only buy in for 50BB. I’ve developed a style that keeps me winning on a small but steady rate. Unfortunately  I rarely have a stack bigger than 150BB.

 

Any advice?

 

Thanks,

Greyzy 

I think its worth a shot but these players tend to get stuck to hands so I think more of your value comes from implied odds than fold equity.

Todd,

thanks for your advice. Don’t get me wrong: I don’t mean what you say is wrong!!! Actually that’s how I usually play, but I find it incredibly BORING! I am a consistent (but rather small) winner playing that way, so it appears that it’s not a bad approach. What frustrates me is this:

- It’s boring!

- I rarely build up a big stack > 4 buy-ins (> 200BB), but the guys around me rack (and stack off) the chips in huge piles. Hey, I want to participate in the "racking" and leave the "stacking off" to them…

- Once my stack in fact does grow, this strategy is getting less effective, because stack-to-pot-ratio is getting bigger on the flop. I usually add the better suited and/or connected starting hands to my range then. But it’s causing me real headaches playing a big stack against them.

I’d really appreciate any advice regarding how to play in these games once your stack gets to about 150-200 BB.

Thanks,

Greyzy

WOW!

Yesterday in my home game I walked away with a profit of 10 buy-ins (1 buy-in = 50 BB) after 3 rebuys!

The reason why I write about it is NOT to boast, but to ask for advice how to play once my stack size get so big. What made yesterday’s game especially interesting was that the guy to my immediate left had an even bigger stack (or at least a very similar stack size) and the guy next to him, too. Try to imagine how our end of the table looked like with all the chips piling up…

So every time one of those guys was in the pot (or might get in the pot preflop BEHIND me!), I had an EFFECTIVE stack of >500BB. Both of them were playing very loose PF and quite aggressive after the flop what made me play pretty different than usual like this hand (comments are very welcome):

me: AsAd UTG; I limped because there was NO way to get an SPR of <5; also I did NOT want initiative in this hand in EP, because I am known as a tight player and any ace on the flop would have scared away worse hands that do not beat top pair. So I tried to keep the pot small and hopefully trap someone on a not too scary flop.

UTG+1 folds; UTG+2 raises to 5BB; fold; MP 2 call, folded to me and I called

=> 3 players to the flop; pot: 16.5BB

stacks: me ~500BB; UTG+2 ~500BB; MP 2 ~100BB

flop: 9h 9s 7s

check (I would have had to bet at least 30BB to have a chance of driving out my draw-happy friends, but I prefered to watch the likely betting before me. I also might have run into a raise which would NOT have given any valuable information, so I decided to check.) UTG+2 bets 10BB; called by MP2 (a loose and very passive player) and by me. This might have been his usual cbet and the usual loose call, but this might also mean that one or both were on a draw or someone had a 9. I flat called because I might still have the best hand, but did not raise because many cards could change that.

=> 3 players; pot: 46.5BB

turn: 5s

Still just top pair for me, but now I got a draw to the nut flush. Check by me, UTG+2 bets 20BB, MP 2 makes his usual call (loose-passive!) and I decided to call hoping for the flush or an ace.

=> 3 players; pot: 106.5BB

river: Ks making the board 9h 9s 7s 5s Ks

Now this pot is far too big to get checked around by UTG+2 who likes to scare away his opponents on the river. I check, he thinks for a while then bets 20BB which is a "sure" sign that he doesn’t like his hand very much. MP2 calls, meaning that none of them has a boat. I guess that my nut flush is good more than 1 out of 3 times, so I raise it to 70BB. UTG+2 almost goes on tilt, not sure what to do and finally calling. MP2 thinks for a while then shrugs his shoulders and puts in the rest of his chips (maybe 30BB).

Final pot: ~280BB

UTG+2 shows Ts 8s; MP2 shows 9d Qs

Normally I never limp with AA from any position, but with this large effective stack I am glad I did (flush draw, straight draw and trips after the flop) and especially that I didn’t get into "I have aces and will rule the world"-mode (meaning: stacking off after going on invincibility tilt).

Any comments or ideas how I should have played it differently? Should I have "sweetened" the pot preflop?

BTR,

I disagree in this case that raising AA with those DEEP stacks would be "value betting", but I am interested to hear different opinions!

The most "value" I could have gotten in PF would have been a raise to maybe 5-10BB. But that would have led to one or at most 2 callers, if any. It would also have given my opponents a lot of information about the range of my hand, that would have led to getting less "value" on the later street from WORSE hands.

My conclusion is this: once even a significant raise won’t lead to an SPR that is favourable for a top pair hand it does NOT generate value, because the hand will be very tricky to play from the flop on (basically defending a big pot with top pair against draws, 2 pairs, sets/trip).

I’d rather keep the pot small preflop and reconsider my options after the flop before putting significant money in when deep stacked.

But as I said: playing deep stacked is causing me trouble and I am happy for any advice!

Todd said:

If you’re going to limp AA, it really needs to be with the intention of re-raising.

If your opponents are very loose, oversize your re-raise such that getting all-in is not a mistake.  This is no limit.  You aren’t stuck with a 3x raise size.  If you have 500BB stacks, make it 80BB to go.  If they want to call with rags, let them call.

Do you mean 80BB as l/rr?