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SSLH: Is it really a bad raise on the turn?

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3:58 pm
April 21, 2007


Thomas Vuitton

New Member

posts 1

Hi everyone,

 I have posted the following hand at 2+2 and everyone said it was a bad raise and suggested call down to the river. Is it really so bad?

UTG+1 played only 2 hands at the table, so I had no reads about him (her).
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $1/$2
6 players

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with kd ac
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: 6d 9c kc (5.5SB, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 7h (3.75BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 re-raises, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to UTG+1.

Results:
Final pot: 7.75BB


My thought:  After his donkbet on the turn I had only 4.5-1 odds (excl. rake) to call. If he had 2 pair or better I would fold (Because I had 8-9 outs to beat 2 pair. But all of them won't make the nuts. So I had only about 6.5-7.5 outs) If he had only Kx or semibluff, I would raise. So I would either raise or fold. Because my effective odds was only 5.5-2 when I called down to the river, I don't think call down was a good play.

Then I thought if he did have 2 pair or above, why didn't he check-raise? So I decided to raise and would check or call depending on the river. But he 3-betted!!! Then I folded. I thought he had 15% Kx, 45% 2pair, 20% straight and 20% set, then I folded.

Where is the mistake in my thought?

4:36 pm
April 21, 2007


Pawel

Guest

Oh well…

I'd raise the turn the same as you did, but I would not fold!!!!!!!!!

I'd call and then call once more on the river.

You are getting some 8-to-1 on your call and you have at least 6 outs (3 Aces and 2 Kings) unless he has a set or straight; if he hit set you only have two K (he's very unlike to have KK)

Anyway if you play like this, they'll pick on you and push you out of many more hands.

Plase correct me someone if I'm wrong but I wouldn't fold AK here.

Pawel 

10:53 pm
April 21, 2007


arh1

Member

posts 9

Yuck.  That sucks getting 3bet on the turn.  But without a read on this player, I would have to call down from there and see what he has.  He could have the nuts, but he could also have a semi-bluffing hand, a worse made hand than yours, or a 2 pair hand that you could draw out on.

I like the turn raise for 2 reasons:

1.  The turn card presents a good opportunity for him to semi-bluff donk, so a raise will make him pay to get there.  If there were no draws on the board, I might be more inclined to call down instead of raise.

2.  You have top pair top kicker in a heads up pot, so getting 2 bets on the turn is usually going to make you money. 


   


11:10 pm
April 21, 2007


BTR

Member

posts 180

"if he hit set you only have two K (he's very unlike to have KK)"

if villian hit a set, hero is drawing dead!

if he has 96 your outs are 2*K, 3*A, & 3*7 you need 4.75:1 for break even since you're getting 8:1 there is enough overlay to draw to the non-nuts

if he has K6 your outs are 3*A, 3*9, & 3*7 you need 4:10:1 for break even, another call

if he has K9 your outs are 3*A

if he has K7 your outs are 3*A, 3*9 you need 6.7:1 for break even, another call. 

against a set or straight your drawing dead.

I think you atleast have to call the 3-bet and re-evaluate all 3 options on the river.

I'm having trouble coming up with a hand that would logically play as check/call donk/3bet.  The donk bet could have represented any pair as  defense against the free card but I can't see a 3 bet in that situation.

11:54 am
April 22, 2007


Pawel

Guest

He may have a set four ways: would have to have 66, 99, 77 or KK. Pocket Kings are very unlike, so if he has 66, 99 or 77 we are drawing slim to only two outs (two K); any King on the river will give us bigger set.

Pawel 

12:18 pm
April 22, 2007


BTR

Member

posts 180

Pawel said:

He may have a set four ways: would have to have 66, 99, 77 or KK. Pocket Kings are very unlike, so if he has 66, 99 or 77 we are drawing slim to only two outs (two K); any King on the river will give us bigger set.

Pawel 


No, a king on the river will give us a set and him a full house.

2:25 pm
April 22, 2007


Pawel

Guest

Oops!Embarassed Smile

You're right, sorry… 

8:14 pm
April 24, 2007


Ed Miller

Admin

posts 162

Your opponent would have to be very passive and predictable for me to consider playing a line like yours.

My "default" line in an online 6-max game would be to raise the turn, call the 3-bet, and call the river. I don't like raising planning to fold to a 3-bet, and I also don't particularly like calling down either unless you think there's a high probability this donk bet is a stone bluff. 

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