Message Board : SNG Bubble Decision

Current User: Guest Login Register
Please consider registering

Search 
Search Forums:


 




SNG Bubble Decision

Add a New Topic Reply to Post
UserPost

2:51 am
August 2, 2007


David

Guest

Hey Ed, I've read GSIH and enjoyed your SNG section and I haven't seen many SNG questions on your website, so I thought I might throw a tricky one out there that has recently given me a little trouble.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t100/t200
(Ante: t25)
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t2064
Hero: t1750
SB: t4666
BB: t5020

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with 6 Q
UTG folds, Hero ?

I know image is huge here and since I played pretty snug up to this point I should have a tight one. I did shove a couple times prior to this hand, however, including once over a limper, and I didn’t show my cards, so I might be perceived as aggressive.

My estimate of their calling ranges:

BB: 44+,A8s+,KJs+,A8o+,KJo+ (15%)
SB: 55+,A8s+,KQs,A9o+ (11%)

Shoving Q6s here shows a +0.1% profit as opposed to folding, and SNGPT states that pushing and folding are “both reasonable plays” since it is so close.

However, since ICM doesn’t take into account the strategic loss of my FE within the next few orbits, I think the argument for a push gains merit.

Is this one of those spots where ICM underreps the value of a push?

Also, I always tend to think that the low stakes players might call looser than they should, so I toyed around with a looser range and found this result.

Their calling ranges:

BB: 22+,A5s+,KTs+,QJs,A8o+,KJo+ (17%) [adding 22-33,A5s-A7s, and KTs]
SB: 55+,A7s+,KJs+,A8o+,KQo (14%) [adding A7s, KJs, A8o, and KQo]

Now shoving Q6s shows a –0.3% difference from folding.

I’m trying to reconcile these two competing concepts:

a) Since the loose big-stacked blinds at the low stakes are more likely to call my shove with hands like KJ, A7, or 33, the equity of a play switches from + to – rather sharply so you have to think hard about these kind of spots, right?

b) ICM analysis might understate the value of pushing when your FE is eroding.

I’m wondering what your default play would be and why? Also, how do think these two ideas play into this particular hand?

7:18 am
August 2, 2007


Todd

Member

posts 454

So, is this a $10 or $20 SNG?

I think you probably need to go with your wider calling range.  I find you do get looked up light a lot in these games and your FE just isn't what you'd hope.  

Unless the blinds are about to go up, I don't know that your FE is eroding so much that you need to push with any 2.  You still have 8BB so you 7 or 8 hands where you will have significant FE.  Yes, ICM doesn't take into account that you are declining in FE, but I'm not sure you should take this into consideration this orbit given you still have some over all the players and plenty over the player who will be the SB to your BB.

In any event, this decision is really close and like all close decisions it really doesn't matter all that much what you do in the long run.  When your estimate is within a couple of % of break even, you just don't have enough information to make any sort of meaningful choice.  Both choices are the same.  I think you have plenty of chips to see 7 or 8 more hands and odds are you will get a top 25% hand in that span.  So, my preference would be to fold it.  I would certainly fold if the UTG player had a habit of completing the SB.  You can shove with any 2 there pretty profitably and give yourself another free orbit.

10:47 am
August 2, 2007


weasel97

Member

posts 48

I'm with Todd on the wider calling range.

Assuming this is a low $ SNG, you'll probably get fairly liberal calls from the blinds in this situation, especially the big blind, once the SB has folded.  You just can't cause enough pain to the blinds here–you don't have the chips.

I think you have greater fold equity against the player on your right who was UTG this hand.  As Todd alluded, if he completes the SB, you can push from the BB pretty liberally. 

If it were me, I'd almost want to see the other player with a similar stack size raise the big stacks in the blind to see how they react before trying a similar play for all my chips. 

But at any rate, I think that even if your narrow ranges are correct, and you do have +.1% $EV (which I doubt), you still probably want to fold.  I think this is a good example of passing up a small edge to wait for a bigger edge.  The problem is that if you take this +.1% edge now, you won't be able to take +1% edges that may come up next round, or the round after.

1:45 pm
August 2, 2007


Zot95

Member

posts 4

Very close decision.  Image I think is the deciding factor.  You said you shoved a couple times… a couple times in the past orbit, or a couple times "in a while"?   And what I don't know is the image of the blinds… are they snug, or what?

I think you are definitely thinking right that your FE is fading fast here.  Right now, if you push, you can leap past the SB in chips.  And you'd put a dent on the BB too.  But at this point in the next orbit, you'll have t1350.  And the orbit after that, t950… ugh, there you're going to push with any 2 whether you like it or not. Actually, if it were me, if I hadn't made a move by that point, I'd push by UTG on the next orbit unless I had total garbage… and even then, maybe.

Add a New Topic Reply to Post


Reply to Topic: SNG Bubble Decision

Guest Name (Required):

Guest EMail (Required):

Guest URL (required)

Math Required!
What is the sum of: 4 + 1        (Required)

Topic Reply:


 

About the Noted Poker Authority forum

Currently Online:

3 Guests

Maximum Online: 38

Forums:

Groups: 1

Forums: 1

Topics: 579

Posts: 3408

Members:

There are 3626 members

There are 120 guests


Ed Miller has made 166 posts

Top Posters:

Todd - 454

threads13 - 355

karbyn - 232

BTR - 180

Pawel - 116

Administrator: Ed Miller | Moderators: Ed Miller


© Simple:Press Forum - Version 3.1.4 (Build 357)