Message Board : Playing TPTK OOP on a monotone board

I typically check/call the flop and check/shove the turn. It’s a lot harder for him to call with a draw with 1 card to come.

If it goes c/c on the turn, I will generally value bet the river unless I think the villain is particularly crafty.

If a 4th heart comes, I will generally give up the hand.

What about checkraising the flop? I suspect a loose player isn’t going to bet a made flush on the flop, hoping to get value for his monster. So if he’s betting, you’re probably best.

threads13 said:

I’d think he’d bet a flush.  He is a tough player, so I think he won’t want to give free cards that will beat him a lot or kill his action.

He’d probably bet a lot of different hands here, most of which you’re ahead of. If he has a pair and a flush draw, a checkraise will put the decision on him and give you back control of the hand. If you have a good read on him, hopefully his reaction to your bet will let you know what you need to do next.

Nice post…it had been getting quiet in here recently.   I have played this multiple ways in the past. 

Todd’s line works well if the cards and betting follow along.  Its a nice healthy pair, but its still a pair, and there is no need to make the pot too big.  Its advantage is that you get to act last on both streets, and make your determination of whether to commit there.  The disadvantage is the likelihood of giving the winning free card again.  Still you have only commited 4% of your stack, so the flush coming in is not the end of the world. 

I have also played it as the aggressor, betting the pot, and trying to improve my read on the villian.  This works great and wins small pots if he does not have the draw, but has real bad disadvatages, the ones that many players don’t always see when we get OOP with TPTK:

• It gets much more money in the pot without improving our knowledge of his holdings well if he simply calls along, and we are faced with another OOP play immediately
• The plan breaks down to re-raise, and I am faced with the unwanted difficult decision, and must nearly 100% rely on my knowledge of my opponents ability, and likelihood of making a play on me
• You win many small pots, but can lose huge ones 
• You expose yourself to more bluffs, the check-call line actually returns last action to you, even though you risk the flush draw out.  Acting last is always preferable while trying to somewhat control the pot size.

I don’t really like the check raise here against a single opponent OOP.  The cards he calls/raises you with are not cards you really want to play against.  Its another way to build a huge pot and be faced with a tough decision if the draw comes in on the next card.  The same kind of analysis applies.

Todd’s play is somewhat safe, and tends to protect your stack. 

If you choose to bet out, I think you really have to have a good read on the villian, or a tough cardio system.  If he is as tough as you say, you may not.  "Check" 

threads13 said:

Todd said:

I typically check/call the flop and check/shove the turn. It’s a lot harder for him to call with a draw with 1 card to come.

If it goes c/c on the turn, I will generally value bet the river unless I think the villain is particularly crafty.

If a 4th heart comes, I will generally give up the hand.

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Would you say it’s a fair statement that you are in bad shape when you are called when you take this line? I think this line sounds good but you are basically just trying to get value from draws that you don’t really have crushed. I think it’s ok because the pot is big.

I agree you are in bad shape more often than not. It sort of depends on the quality of the player. You will get looked up by weaker A’s putting you on a draw a fair bit of the time.

Anyway, the things I like about the line are:

- It controls the pot if the flop goes check,check

- It’s a very aggressive line and lets you show up with strong top pairs in with a somewhat disguised line

- As an aggressive line, it makes your opponents respect your checks

- It shuts out draws on the turn

- It disguises the times you take the same line with a draw

The downsides are:

- If he flopped a flush, you’re screwed

- You’re playing for stacks with a hand that isn’t going to look all that good if called. Probably 65-75% of the time you get called, you will be crushed.

Significant downsides to be sure. I think you can make a turn check work. I think you can take a bet fold/river line and make it work if you’ve kept the pot small. So, I don’t think this is the only line. I do think it has a lot of meta game value if you don’t mind the swings. I’ve been playing a lot more turn shoving lines lately. I like the impact it has on my opponents.

Todd said:

mbuss said:

What about checkraising the flop? I suspect a loose player isn’t going to bet a made flush on the flop, hoping to get value for his monster. So if he’s betting, you’re probably best.

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A good player is going to bet the flush 100% of the time. He needs to build a pot.  I’m with threads in that I don’t like a flop c/r.  The pot isn’t the right size for that.  He can shove his draws on you and really put you in a pickle.

Which is not to say that I didn’t c/r the hell out of that flop in this spot the other night….

Todd said:

threads13 said:

Todd said:

mbuss said:

What about checkraising the flop? I suspect a loose player isn’t going to bet a made flush on the flop, hoping to get value for his monster. So if he’s betting, you’re probably best.

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A good player is going to bet the flush 100% of the time. He needs to build a pot.  I’m with threads in that I don’t like a flop c/r.  The pot isn’t the right size for that.  He can shove his draws on you and really put you in a pickle.

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Which is not to say that I didn’t c/r the hell out of that flop in this spot the other night….

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So was the pickle you were in kosher or dill?

Whichever you think tastes worst.  Of course the c/r was called… which I actually didn’t like.  What’s your plan after then?

threads13 said:

Whichever you think tastes worst.  Of course the c/r was called… which I actually didn’t like.  What’s your plan after then?

My plan was for him to fold to the check raise . Still, I might push on a blank turn if I’m reasonably sure he isn’t there yet.

Question for the group: is AT a hand in his range here?

I used to bet out here thinking he might have a high diamond and don’t want to give a free draw, but nowdays I’m checking here. If he is a good player as stated, I assume he is tricky aggressive, and you are oop. That sucks. I think I check here. If he makes a small stab (could be a suction bet) I call and see what happens on the turn. He might think you are checking a flush. If he bets big I curse and let it go. If he bets on the turn after a small stab, think you gotta let it go with this size stack and oop.