Message Board : Odd Hand in Need of Analysis

HJ,

I cannot understand why you say “In this hand the min-check raise on a coordinated board makes no sense to me, particularly from a straightforward player.”.

Several hands would make sense to me:

a) AKs-KJs: he likes the pot odds preflop and thinks you raise light; then he tests how strong his paired K is and tries NOT to buid a big pot so he can still let go

b) two unpaired hearts (like AQ): preflop as above; postflop he tries to push you off a weak hand with a flush draw as an emergency exit

c) 55/77: preflop as above; postflop he wants you to think he's on a draw and also wants to keep you in the hand

Just my 2 cents!

Greyzy

Honestly, I am ok with sometimes calling the c/r.  Sometimes, I think you should reraise also just as a bluff.  I think its one of those things where you call ike 50% of the time and reraise like 10% of the time.  You really are calling because you have something of a hand and you don't want to auto-fold hands like this because often times you won't have a pair in this spot.  If you always fold a pair then c/r'ing you on the flop with a wide range of semi-bluffs/bluffs will become very profitable.

HungryJ0e said:

Had an interesting hand the other night in live action, especially considering the previous post that discussed the check-minraise…  Looking for opinions on my flop play…

2-5 NLHE, most players about $500 (I have $600 in this hand, BB had $425).  Two limpers to me, I have 8h-8d in the cutoff.  I raise to $25.  BB (a solid, veteran player who is somewhat straightforward) and one limper call.  Flop comes Kh-7d-5h.  Both players check.  I bet $45.  BB min-raises to $90, limper folds.

In this hand the min-check raise on a coordinated board makes no sense to me, particularly from a straightforward player.  I couldn't think of any possible hand that would justify this move.  I will say though that in general, the players I routinely see check raise too often for too little, IMHO.  I really couldn't see folding here, and also called for table image (is this a leak?) planning on folding the turn if there was more serious resistance.

I play a lot more 6 max than FR, so I think I would tend to call and evaluate on the flop.  This the sort of flop that you can get c/r on quite a bit.  So, I'd call thinking I still have the best hand fairly often but I don't want to play a monster pot.  I wouldn't raise.  I don't think that really buys you all that much.

In a 6-max game, I he wouldn't show up with AK or KQ very often as those would generally get 3-bet from the blinds from a button raiser.  In a live FR game, I suppose it's possible that he had those.  I think 75s is much more likely, though, if he was actually ahead of you.  That seems to fit the bill nicely.  He's not getting it all in with KQ most likely.  On a board that drawy, he'd probably pop it a bit more with AK.

But anyway, as played, I'm peeling one in position for the most part.  You could convince me that that is wrong in a live FR game and I would believe you.

Shrike said:

I'll dissent and say that learning to release second pair to the board in spots like this is a significant and important lesson to learn to improve your long-term winrate.

Your holding fares very poorly against the range of hands that can check-raise you on a flop like this.

I also agree that it should not be so very difficult to put your opponent on a range of hands that check-raise you here which have you beat. Yes, some subset of the hands will be straight and flush draws — maybe the BB occasionally shows up here with 4h6h for the double draw? — and you have very poor pot equity against the hands he's representing.

Although you went runner-runner for quads, I recommend folding on the flop more often than not.

First, I generally agree that folding in this spot is fine.  There are a lot more spots where you'll be able to run people over in position.  Passing on this one is hardly a mistake.  I just don't think calling is that much of a mistake either.

I'd agree with you more if we weren't in the cutoff.  If we were in early or middle position and got c/r, I think it would be a much clearer fold.  This flop would hit our range much harder and c/r's would generally indicate a stronger range on the villains part.  I tend to be a lot more tenacious in position in these late position blind battles.  Again, this reflects my 6-max and short handed background.

Here are the thoughts going through my head on the min check-raise, and why it didn't make sense to me…

I raised preflop, albeit from late position.  From the BB's position, I would reraise premium hands (AK, AA down to 10's) preflop against a player with my general range, although now that I think about it I've never seen him reraise preflop, so he probably would only do that with AA, KK, and maybe QQ.  In general the table was slightly loose preflop, so I put him on something like low pairs, couple of high cards, or suited connectors.

What does he think I have at this point?  I'm one of the tighter players around.  We haven't played alot together, although we've played enough and he's (apparently) observant enough that he should know this (although I do think I'm more observant than he is, and have also made a special point of observing his play in our previous few encounters).  I'm also relatively aggressive.  I tend to be stickier than I should maybe, although he probably hasn't played me enough to know this tendency yet.  Any pocket pair, AK-KQ, suited connecters are in my range.  My flop bet could represent a wide range of hands, including a pure c-bet, although against two players with a K and connected board he has to weigh that my bet means I'm okay with the flop a bit more than heads up.  Still he can't narrow down my range too much.

His check raise is giving me almost 4-1 odds.  He's laying me great odds, knows he's laying me great odds, and knows I know he's laying me great odds.  Why?  If I'm on a flush draw, he's almost laying me the expressed odds I need for the turn alone.  Even the nuts at this point (an unlikely holding) would fear that to some extent.

If he's paired the K and wants to know if he's good, he's going about it in a strange way.  Paying for information is only good if (a) the information is useful and (b) it is reliable.  Knowing that a K is good at this point is certainly useful, but using a min check-raise isn't the right way to go about it because the information isn't going to be reliable.  A large portion of the hands I would bet the flop with will also call due to great pot odds.  In fact I'm likely to call with anything but a pure c-bet.  The strongest hands in my range may also call and not reraise here to fade the turn and let him continue his aggression.  Either leading out or check raising more would be more usual avenues.

If he's very strong (two pair, trips) check-raising tips the strength of his hand somewhat.  If I'm holding top pair or AA, I'm going to be suspicious as the hand continues and may release if big money comes out on the turn.  If he wants to slowplay, he should check call the flop and possibly the turn as well.

If he is on a flush draw, he may be check-raising the minimum to gauge my reaction or look for a free river card.  He may be able to make a move on the turn and take the pot away given his read, or check the turn and hope for a free card.  If I'm on a c-bet he may be able to take the pot down now.  While check-raising the minimum is unconventional with a flush draw, it makes the most sense to me out of the various situations.  It also is going to be dealt with more frequency than the two pair or trip holdings.

Given all this, getting almost 4-1 odds was too attractive for me.  He's done something unconventional and I don't have a clear idea on what his holding is although I suspect it's a flush draw.  As I have position on the turn, it seems to me calling here isn't too bad.  Shrike, I'm not sure I would say I'm burning $50 seeing the odds I'm getting.  Even if I am “usually” burning $50, the “usually” has to be in the 80% range for this to be unattractive.  If I was acting first on the turn I agree it's a clear fold…

Greyzy, Shrike, reasons above are why I say I have trouble putting him on a hand… given that he's supposed to be a good player, not sure making this move with K-x or trips makes sense… flush draw maybe although it's certainly unconventional.  Thoughts?

- HJ

Shrike said:

I think calling to re-evaluate on the turn is just spewy. Unless you get one of the two remaining eights in the deck, you have to turn your hand into a pure bluff, because you can't beat anything that your opponent could plausibly have. (Heck, an 8 also completes a straight draw unless you fill up on the river.)

When I call, I expect that the I have the best hand a reasonable amount of the time.  I'm not looking to improve.   Also, I expect the villain isn't going to fire multiple streets on a bluff so I can play the turn and river pretty well.  When I call that bet, I'm not looking to put a whole lot more money in the pot.

That said, I have been known to light money on fire.

Todd said:

When I call, I expect that the I have the best hand a reasonable amount of the time.  I'm not looking to improve.   Also, I expect the villain isn't going to fire multiple streets on a bluff so I can play the turn and river pretty well.  When I call that bet, I'm not looking to put a whole lot more money in the pot.

That said, I have been known to light money on fire.

Clearly, I don't share the same expectation that I have the best hand here a reasonable amount of the time (and to be clear, I'm not using results-based analysis, but am drawing upon a lot of personal experience here).

I also don't expect my opponent to make life easy for me on future streets. Can you possibly call another bet with 88 unimproved? I think not, and that's just what you are setting yourself up for with a call on the flop.

If I really, truly felt that my opponent was very very often bluffing here with 12 outs or less on this flop, I would just 3-bet a large amount as a money favourite and try to end the hand right there, because my hand plays terribly on future streets. I don't want to give myself a tough decision; I want to put my opponent in a tough spot.

Todd said:

No, I don't think you can call another bet unimproved.  But, it's hard for him to continue with a bluff there OOP as well.  If he's just stabbing he's going to have to shut it down unless the board gets really grim and he can bluff some scare cards.  But, any scare cards would be scarey for him as well.  For the price laid, it's not so bad a spot to continue.

I would never 3-bet there.  He's never folding a 12 out draw and your hand has too much show down value.

Mostly, though, I would check back the flop and avoid this decision all together.  The hand ahs decent showdown value but lousy big pot value.  One of the key things about position is that you decide when the pot gets big.  I don't really think you want the pot big on this flop.

Interesting discussion.  I appreciate everyone's feedback.  Definitely more to consider in these situations…

1. Back to the check min-raise… are there hands where this *is* a good move.  As stated in a previous post I made, I pretty much write the check min-raise out of my playbook because it is ineffective as a bluff and tips the strength of strong hands without sufficient payback.  Seeing as the way the villain played the hand it caused me some trouble, does that mean there are indeed proper situations where a check min-raise should be part of your toolbox (not saying it needs to be the right play 100% of the time, but something you can throw out a certain percentage of the time to keep opponents off balance)?

2. I sort of assumed leading out here was the right move a high percentage of the time.  Todd, you say you would mainly check here.  Against one opponent I think that might be okay, but against two opponents (one of whom is “good” and one who is weak and limp-called preflop) on a coordinated board is that the right move?  Seems a bit weak… after all I do have second pair, am unlikely to improve, and vulnerable to quite a few cards (arguably well over half the deck).  I'm reasonably strong but am almost certain to get rapidly weaker as the hand continues.  My feeling is moving at the pot now is my best shot and takes advantage of my tight-aggressive image.  Totally agree that I'm not in this hand for a big pot, and will back off from serious resistance (which is why the min-c-bet causes me some trouble…).  While checking might induce a bluff, it also could land me in a heap of trouble.  Thoughts?

Cheers,

- HJ

Coda:

I was checking out some of the sample videos at stoxpoker (been thinking about signing up for a membership), and one of the videos was on the c-bet in NLHE…

Good video overall… discusses alot for the basic to intermediate level player.

Anyhow, in his discussion on response to a check-raise, his advise was to call with hands that had value, often call with draws, and sometimes with junk.  Specific example involved a preflop raiser heads up versus the BB with medium stacks, where preflop raiser had 55.  Flop was A-7-2 (two-tone if I recall correctly), BB checked, preflop raiser c-bet 2/3 of pot or so, and BB checkraised.  Advise was call here.

Thought that was interesting… made me feel better about my play.  Granted the situations were somewhat different (higher stakes online play, 6 handed), but nonetheless my call, if wrong, couldn't have been too far wrong…

Cheers,

- HJ