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No Limit flush- 1 mistake or several?

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6:47 pm
May 16, 2007


jamleeco

Member

posts 89

Preflop- I'm in cutoff with 7h9h, there are 3 limpers to me, I call. The button raises to 3.7xbb(1-3), sb calls, limpers call, so it's 7-1 on my money when it gets back, I"m to the immediate right of the raiser, I call.  ( I started this hand with 80bb's, most have me covered but not all).

Flop–AhJhTh. All check to me, the pot is 20 bb's (rake). The raiser is only one left after me. I did not check to raiser in case the flop scared him, but I underbet the pot (something I normally dont' do) with a 7 bb bet. I wanted it to look like I had something and didn't want drawers. Or a weak stab at pot with suited flop.Plus K or Qh is a draw anyway. Button calls, sb calls.

 Turn is the 3c. Pot is 41 bb's. Sb checks ( he has only about 15bb's left). I bet 20 bb's. This gives the button roughly 3-1 on his money. (I should have bet a little more I think). If I can't get away from my hand then little close to 5.8-1.   But I think 2pair or set would have raised me or will now. Even so, set is roughly only a 3.5-1 underdog ( discounting my cards). 2pair bout 10-1. The K or Q of hearts 6.7-1 underdog. Now I feel if the board pairs I could get away, but if a heart comes I'll wait and see. The button thinks for a long time and calls. The sb throws his 15 and is all-in.

In my mind the thing I'm most worried about here is a heart. The river was the Qh. Now only the Kh beats my hand. I had seen the button call all the way before with a weaker hand. I thought he possibly had A and small heart. Or had a straight and didn't raise turn maybe. Anyway, and this was probably stupid, I bet 15bb's. I thought he might call with a missed set  or smaller flush. Well, he went all-in for my last 35 bb's. The pot was now 165 bb's. If it hadn't been the Qh think I would have folded. I felt dismal because the action made me pretty sure I was beat, but I was getting about 4.6-1 to call on the end. Only the Kh beats me and the all-in guy could have it.

The button had KcKh. I should have bet more than 1/2 pot on turn but didn't want to runoff a weaker hand/draw. Even not getting away from my hand he didn't have odds to draw, but I think I cut it too close on his making a mistake. This guy was a gamlber though, really thought he might think I would fold anything but the nut here. Only thing that made me feel better( not much) was he said he wasn't going anywhere with that hand and I believe him. He was on a hot run and had huge stack. Oh, and I have been off for 7weeks.(excuse Embarassed)

But , that's irrelevant. Ed, did I make huge mistakes here or small ones. I was so confident at limit and fairly successful, but this nl… Should I feel confident enough with very limited nl experience to fold getting 4.6-1 on only 35bb's left.

7:09 pm
May 16, 2007


Pawel

Member

posts 116

Hi!

I'm a NL-cash games beginner.

I would bet more on the turn, 30-35 BB. Your bet left you 49BB. I know that he's not getting proper odds nor implied odds, but anyway if he calls and another heart comes what do we do?
Checking a heart on river opens a bluff possibility for him. I'd bet more.

I think I'd also bet more on the flop, but it's because I have tournament experience - I want someone with a high heart to fold as soon as possible and don't want to lose that pot, even if I win less that way. 

7:42 am
May 17, 2007


Todd

Member

posts 427

Oh baby, the Royal.

I would have played it a little faster.  Not because you would have pushed the villain out of the hand, but that you would have been able to get all the money in ahead.  I don't think you are going to get rid of the villain.  You limp/called.  In his eyes, more than likely you have some sort of draw and maybe a made baby flush and maybe a weak A.  If you had a set, you almost surely would put in a big bet to find out where you are.  It isn't very likely you have a set.  Only JJ and TT make any sense at all and often those hands are raising in late position to a couple of limpers.  I would have put you on a weak A or some sort of baby flush/draw.  I think you could pretty easily have QhJx, QhTx or Tx9h.  and be throwing out those blocking bets drawing to a lesser flush.  It's also really easy to think that you have AXs and are betting a little scared.

He has second pair, a gut shot and a nut flush draw.  Unless he puts you on a baby flush exactly, he's getting pretty good money the whole way.

I'm not clear how he didn't stick in a big raise on the flop to try to take you off a baby A.

In any case, you aren't getting away from the hand on the end.  A K and K only beats you. I think you have to look him up getting 4-1 in an enormous pot. 


7:49 am
May 17, 2007


threads13

Member

Indiana

posts 349

I think you made mistakes on every street.


On the flop, the pot is 20BB and you have ~76BB behind.  If any of your opponents have a higher heart they are a ~4:1 against you.  The pot is getting pretty large so you don't mind taking it down.  The way I look at it, when you FLOP a baby flush you aren't going to make THAT much money.  I don't want to give anyone good odds to call so I need to bet big.  If you bet the pot you are offering them a little under 5:1 implied odds.  If you bet 25BB then you are giving them a little less than what they need to see the next card.   You might pick up the pot right there, which is a good result for you.  You might get raised by the button, another good result because you can then 3-bet AI.  A bigger bet also decreases the liklihood of you getting overcalls.


On the turn the pot is now 41BB and you have ~69BB behind.  I think you need to at least bet 30.  This gives just under 4:1 implied for a higher flush draw to call profitably.  This makes the river a pretty easy push when it gets to it.  The pot will be at least 129BB and you will have 39 left.  I could see an argument for pushing the turn here, but I don't know if you will get called by any worse hands.


If you had played it with a big flop bet(25BB), then you would have had at least a 70BB pot on the turn with 51BB behind.  You can then push and you wouldn't have given him the correct odds to call the turn and you would have most likely gotten all your money in as a favorite.


I really think the biggest mistake was on the flop.  I think you made the hand a whole bunch harder than it should have been. You gave your opponents the opportunity to play perfectly as compared to making mistakes. 

10:24 am
May 17, 2007


jamleeco

Member

posts 89

Threads13, 

               I agree I misplayed this hand. However, part of my thinking was that he was not ~ 4-1 with a higher heart , but if he had that he thought he was. He can only have Kh or Qh. That makes 9 left. I have 2 h's , that's 7. And the 8h gives me a straight flush, that's 6 left. So he is a 6.7-1 underdog. 2 pair is an even weaker hand or take a cheap chance with a gutshot. Figured a set or straight would raise me, maybe even 2 pair. So one thought was keep weaker draws in at a bad price or get raised and then re-raise all-in, hoping the small bet might get things rolling if someone had a strong hand and weaker ones take a stab. (Todd, I agree with you, I was surprised he didn't raise with that hand)

I do think I should have bet more on the turn. The more I have thought about it maybe I should have checked on the flop hoping button /raiser bet and then re-raised. I was guessing flop might scare him off or he would wait for turn to bet. 3rd nut flush on the flop is a pretty robust hand and I want to get the betting going.

So, even if I made the wrong play I was hoping Ed would sound in on my logic and if my thought processes are out in left field.But, to reiterate, I don't feel good about the way I played the hand. And I didn't trust my instincts on the river. I almost checked ready to fold. But if I checked and he went all-in could be a bluff, but after I bet my stack is so small I think maybe I 'm supposed to call anyway. Like I felt sure, but can one be that sure at 4.6-1. I don't know, off my head, 18% of the time he's bluffing I break even. Obviously I need help.

10:40 am
May 17, 2007


threads13

Member

Indiana

posts 349

That is a good point about his outs not being clean.  I didn't notice that that one of the flush outs is to a straight flush.  That does change things a little bit.


This means we don't have to bet as much as I was saying.  I am not thinking, my fault.


I still think you can bet a bit more on the flop.  You don't mind picking up a pot this size right now and you can probably get them to call a 3/4 size bet incorrectly most of the time.  I think this is probably the optimal bet size.  It would be a mistake for anyone to call with only 7 outs and that is the most an opponent will usually have if you are beat here.  This makes the pot 50BB and you will have 60BB behind.  You can go ahead and push at this point and get called with a lot of weaker hands.

I would like to hear Ed's thoughts on this to see what the logic should be in this spot.

Don't get down on yourself, brother!  We are always learning.  :)


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