Message Board : KQo OOP against potential thief

Hey guys,

How do you think I played this hand.  The raiser is definitely raising a lot of hands from late position.  No real history between us or anything.  How do you think he plays his range if I check?  I tend to make some overly cautious plays on paired flops, so it is definitely possible that I played this weirdly. 

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold’em, $1 BB (6 handed) Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.comFlopTurnRiver.com (Format: Plain Text)

UTG ($157.05)
MP ($124.50)
CO ($100)
Button ($43.60)
SB ($85)
Hero ($125.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Kd, Qs.    
2 folds, CO raises to $3.5, Button calls $3.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $2.50.

Flop: ($11) Kh, 7s, Ks (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $8.25, Button folds, Hero calls $8.25.

Turn: ($27.50) 8s (2 players)
Hero bets $20, CO folds.

Final Pot: $27.50

ps. I tend to play pretty cautious wiith paired board as well. Maybe too much. But it seems everytime I break that rule, and i don’t do it often, I get burned. You know, win a little or lose a lot. But when I have one of the pair in my hand and 2nd best kicker and those stack sizes, not so much. Let’s build a pot.

I think he was flatting it to get more value out of 88-QQ sorts of hands, using a turn lead as a delayed c/r.

I’m not sure I love the pre-flop call.  I think I 3-bet or fold there with KQo.  With KQs, I think I call/raise something like 50/50.

I don’t mind the c/c, but I prefer c/r.  I think I see what you are trying to do and I think it has merrit.

On paired boards like this, you get more shoves from hands that have you on a move.  You just don’t get credit for the K as often as you think.  If the villain is very tight, I think he reads the turn lead as strong, even withot the third spade.  I actually think you get less credit on the flop.

I think c/r’ing is fine.  The problem is I feel it quickly ends the hand unless I am beat.

I think the preflop call is fine, and I think a raise is fine too.  I think it goes both ways, if I raise I tend to only get called by hands that beat me but I do get some better hands to fold.  If I just flat call I tend to keep in those dominated hands that would fold a large percentage of the time that I 3-bet.  So, I think both raising and calling are fine plays. This guy is raising 30 to 40% of his range here and he is a decent player, but I think KQ is a little too strong to be folding even though I am OOP.

Here’s my thoughts on the turn…

He won’t call without top pair(I crush a lot of those), a pair or a draw (I have solid equity against those), or two pair or a set(I have reasonable outs against those).   I don’t think he will let go of worse hands, but I think a raise is going to tell me that I"m in bad shape.  I really didn’t want to give a free card because I think I will have trouble on the river when a spade comes.  Yeah, I have the second nuts… but haven a 1 card second nuts kinda sucks OOP.  

So really I thought that a c/c flop bet turn line really allows me to narrow down his range on the turn while still giving me good value. 

If the turn wasn’t a spade I would probably check again and plan to call a reasonable bet.  I figure he will bet plenty of worse hands there.  Then I can block the river.

Whatcha’ guys think? Also, do you think I should bet bigger on the turn?

Todd said:

I read the hand, not your comments to start. 

Going back and reading your comments, by cautiously, do you mean you were going to bet fold the turn?  I don’t think that would be very good.  You are definitely looking to get it all in with an opponent with a wide range.  Even more so if the opponent is capable of bluffing a scary board.

I didn’t mean really anything in particular to this hand by cautiously.   

However, I think a turn raise by him falls in the semi-bluff or monster category.  My line shows strength so if he raises he has some major strength.  I really am representing a flush, but he probalby figures I could do this a semi-bluff or something also.  He probably won’t put me on a set since I flat called the flop.  So, my line probably confused him pretty good and he is probably think I am on a flush, a pair plus a draw, or I am making a move.  I think I will get some curious calls but I don’t think a raise is ever a weak hand.

Todd said:

I didn’t mean really anything in particular to this hand by cautiously.

 

Ah, ok.

I don’t think the PF call is bad, I just don’t lvoe it. KQ is a tricky sort of hand oop.

I don’t mind the c/c - lead approach. The turn was sort of a bad card in that it made the whole situation so much scarier for a 1 pair hand.

The balance point is how often you induce bad shoves with a c/r vs getting an extra call on the turn. I think it is a good thing to show both lines once in a while.

I do think it is really improtant to show some c/c call lines with strong hands to villains, particularly c/c-c/r lines to give yourself some cover when you want to get a medium strength hand to showdown.

Agreed - especially with the bottom line.  However, are you calling a push to a c/r in this spot?  It sounds like you are, but I don’t think we are in good shape versus his shoving range.

How do you feel about the reasoning I gave for the line? 

threads13 said:

mbuss said:

Nor do I play 6-max, but here’s my two cents.

I feel you played it weak. I kept waiting to read "Hero raises" and was disappointed I never did. You’ve got a ton of hand here, but you don’t really have any idea where you’re at. I think you have to raise somewhere here to gain a little information, and jamleeco’s idea of a c/r on the flop feels right to me. 

You don’t mention what you put him on. Are you folding because you put him on a flush on the turn, on AK, or a full house? Is it possible you’re just seeing monsters under the bed? Aggression is so important in short-handed games, and it’s doubtful he’s putting you on having a K here. Sure, he might have AK here, but he could just as easily be holding a pocket pair like TT and feel he’s betting the best hand for value.

---

I didn’t fold on the turn. 

Oh, man, did I read that wrong. Totally my bad. 

jamleeco said:

threads13 said:

I think c/r’ing is fine.  The problem is I feel it quickly ends the hand unless I am beat.

 

 

Here’s my thoughts on the turn…

 

He won’t call without top pair(I crush a lot of those), a pair or a draw (I have solid equity against those), or two pair or a set(I have reasonable outs against those).   I don’t think he will let go of worse hands, but I think a raise is going to tell me that I"m in bad shape.  I really didn’t want to give a free card because I think I will have trouble on the river when a spade comes.  Yeah, I have the second nuts… but haven a 1 card second nuts kinda sucks OOP.   

 

Ok, I’m obviously missing something or not on the same wavelength because I’m not following. On the turn you have a one-card trips hand. What is the top pair , two pair or a set and having reasonable outs against those ??? When you are talking about your thoughts on the turn are you referring to pre-turn hands ? 

I think I don’t know what hand I am talking about myself. 

I thought that I was ahead against his range and didn’t want to give a flush draw a free go.  Really, I feel his range is pretty wide after teh flop bet, but I can play perfectly if I bet the turn because I don’t think he will raise me with a worse hand.