Message Board : I want to understand the psycology of why players act the way they do

I think these are hand reading problems more than psychology problems.

1) Say I have pocket 77s (this is a real hand) in late position.  There are already two limpers and the button hasn't acted.  I open the pot for 3xBB. 

Raising is fine, but you really want to raise a bit more to isolate the limpers.  You've given good odds for someone to call behind you and then good odds to build a big preflop pot.  I'd make it 5-6x.

The button and everybody else calls!  The flop is K-Q-5 rainbow and it is folded to me. 

OK, lets put some people on hands.  There are two limpers before you.  What kinds of hands are they most likely to have?  In my experience, pocket pairs, suited connectors and weak suited A's.  Of those, this flop hits JT, QJ (which may have raised denpending on position or may have limped) and 55.  How about the guy who cold called after you?  He's unlikely to be sitting on AA, KK, QQ, or AK or AQ.  He doesn't want to play a 4 way pot with those hands.  His range is going to be very similar to the other limpers.

So, now, who of the 4 in this hand is likeliest to have hit it?  You of course.  You raised pre and this flop hits a raising hand pretty hard.  So it checks to you.  I don't hate that you checked.  The flop missed and it's a 4 way pot.  It's tough to bluff 4 players.  But, I wouldn't hate a bet either.  It reps AK, KQ, AQ, KJ, AA, KK, QQ.  All of these hands are consistent with your pre-flop raise.  It is also very hard for any of the other 3 to continue with an underpair or a suited connector that isn't JT.  So, it's not a bad spot to c-bet even if there are a lot of people in the pot.

Ok, you checked.  To the player with position, it means that most likely you didn't hit the flop.  So, he only has to bluff 2 other people.  He sticks in a bluff and it works (once you check the flop, the fold is fine by the way).  Then he advertises.

What is the psychological driver that made me check? 

You didn't have a good hand for the flop, were out of position to a good player in a multiaway pot.  Not a terrible check/fold.

What drove him to bet with three potential raisers behind? 

There were only 2 potential raisers and they pretty specifically had to have 55 to raise.

2) Say I have A-Ko, and raise for 3xBB.  There is one caller.  I miss the flop and let's just say for an example that the flop is Q-8-5 rainbow.  I am first to act and make a standard C-bet.  He calls.  Why in this position do a lot of players often check the turn when they missed the flop and their opponent calls?  I have done it.  Maybe he really does have the queen.

In games of brinksmanship, the player in position has a distinct advantage.  You will lose more of these hands than you will win.  It's the way it goes.  That said, there's nothing wrong with mixing up your play and firing a second barrel from time to time.  Also, occasionally c/r all-in vs a player likely to bet the turn as a bluff is also a good play.  In both cases, you have decent equity when called by a 1 pair hand.  If you double barrel the turn, you are threatening to play for stacks.  It's tough for a bad Q to call there and mostly he won't have a Q.  He'll have 2nd or 3rd pair or even air.  That board doesn't hit your raising range all that hard.  It's likely that he has the best hand if he has a pair and he gets to decide if the pot gets big or not because he's in position.  It's not such a bad play to peel there with a pair or 67.  It's also not such a bad play for him to raise with a very wide range because it's very difficult for you to continue there without a pair of Q's or better.

I think those will suffice; you should be able to tell what i am looking for by them; a book that explains why players act a certain way in different situations and how to change my play to do better.

Read the Harrington on Cash series.  He has a lot of good material on flop, turn and river play given different hands and board textures.  He also has a lot of good info on leveraging and deleveraging bets on different streets.

After that, a lot of it is just practice.  Note that practice also includes experimentation with different lines.

Finally, I would say that training sites like Stoxpoker (which I belong to and Ed contributes to), CardRunners or Deuces Cracked are excellent resources.  Watching excellent players play and listening to them develop reads and strategies is really, really helpful to your game.  I know my stox membership has been well worth my investment.

Thanks for the kind words Natchez.  I think you give me too much credit.

Why don't you or somebody do a whole book on hand reading?  It has to be one of the core prerequisites for playing good poker.

It wouldn't be me.  I believe I'm a decent hand reader, but not 1/2 as good as a lot of players out there.

Luckily there is already one out there.  Harrington on Hold 'em III is all hand analyses.  50 or 60 examples that you can play along with as a quiz.  It's my favorite poker book ever.  By far.  Not even close.  And I really like Ed's books. 

It's tournament and SNG play.  It follows along with expert players with very thorough analysis by Harrington including a lot of hand reading.  It's one of the few books out there that breaks down a lot of situations street by street, assigning ranges of hands and breaking down betting decisions.

He's talked about doing the same thing for cash if there is demand.  Everybody cross your fingers.

You recommend raising a larger amount; 5xBB or 6xBB.  I have been using the oft quoted method of betting: EP 2 1/2 - 3x, MP 3x, LP 4x. 

I think that's a good place to start if no one is in the pot yet.  When there's more money in the pot, you need to bump it up a bit more.

My weekly tournament is full of weak players (even weaker than I!) who do not respect normal raises.  You seem to be saying that I should raise it on up to narrow the field. 

You're raising it up to buy the button and to be able to play the pot in position with initiative.  A good result would be to take it down pre-flop.  You could reasonably limp in this hand.  Depending on the payout structure, you could even fold this hand.  For example, in a 10 man SNG paying the top 3, lots of pros would fold this if they were in the low blind rounds.

I prefer to raise in most tournament structures.  There just aren't that many chances to accumulate chips in a tournament and I prefer to attack when I can.

If it is a 1 or 2 table tourny and it pays 3 places and everyone is too loose, folding may be best.  You gain equity in the prize pool when loose players stack off to each other.  Let's repeat that.  You gain equity in the prize pool by folding and letting bad player beat up on each other.

Phil Gordon, in something he wrote, said that he had played in games where you have to raise, preflop, up to 10x to get the necessary respect.  I can't remember if this was a cash game or a tournament setting.  It seems that this could be injurious to your health in a tournament when you commit so many chips and are faced with making a C-bet or worse.

I think he's talking about low limit cash games.  Those are notoriously loose preflop.  In your tournament, 10x is certainly too much.

HJ and Todd,

Yes, I recognize good advice when I see it and I intend to follow it.  Thanks.

Something curious:

In the first 28 tournaments in which I played (not counting the ridiculous weekly tournament with the “Poker Zombies”) I cashed 18 times.  I keep a spreadsheet on everything I play in; cash games, internet games/tournaments, and the weekly tournament.

When I saw that it amazed me.  And some of those early tournaments were played when I first started working at poker. 

Okay.  I have not cashed in the last 8.  No comment necessary.  I am just venting.

Still, I am at three or more years of working at this, and I feel so frustrated so much of the time.  It's like walking slowly up a mountain and the slope seems to get ever steeper.

Oh, Todd, I am a Cardrunners.com member, and I do use it.  I am curious whether you or anybody on here recommends Stoxpoker over Cardrunners or vice versa.

I once asked Cardrunners if they had any videos similar to the ones I hear Ed has done on Stoxpoker (instructional — not playing), but I didn't get a reply.

The reason I chose Cardrunners was that they seemed to offer many more videos about NLHE, which is the only poker game I have every played.

Maybe I need Stoxpoker too?

Natchez

Natcheztoo said:

In the first 28 tournaments in which I played (not counting the ridiculous weekly tournament with the “Poker Zombies”) I cashed 18 times.  I keep a spreadsheet on everything I play in; cash games, internet games/tournaments, and the weekly tournament.

When I saw that it amazed me.  And some of those early tournaments were played when I first started working at poker. 

Okay.  I have not cashed in the last 8.  No comment necessary.  I am just venting.

Good thing about learning through tournaments: you limit your exposure while you gain critical live action no limit skills

Bad thing about tournaments: the variance is huge and can be frusturating

So long as you keep studying and keep going over your game, you *will* improve.  IMHO, this will give you the leg up over the vast majority of lower stakes live action players.

Also keep in mind that in general, poker is a game you play against yourself.  It's not something you can really do to impress your friends or show off your skills to strangers.

Again, my personal opinion, sounds like you're asking the right questions in your latest posts, but you're missing the piece on the stack sizes.  This makes me think studying that for a spell could help move your game to the next level.  I'm not sure you need to goto the online sites for that just yet; both the books I cited provide a wealth of knowledge on the subject.

Cheers,

- HJ