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Does a better hand fold ehre?

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7:32 am
April 25, 2007


Todd

Member

posts 427

$.5/$1 NLHE 

Villain and I have a lot of recent history.  We played 60-70 hands of heads up prior to the table filling up.  Threw the kitchen sink at each other.  Flop bluffs, turn bluffs, river bluffs, traps, slow plays, every trick I had.  We ended up just about even when the smoke cleared taking one big pot each off the other (I'm up about $20 on him).

I'm down a bit after having a terrible day with TT (4 hands net -$120, oi.) 

I'm dealt KQs in the BB. (stack $65)

folds to the villain (stack $200) who raises to $3.  He is very agressive.  His range is something like 66+, Kx, Ax, 2 face cards.

I call.

Flop AKQr

I check, villain bets $4

I check raise to $15

Villain calls

Turn is T for a board of AKQT pot $36

My thinking is that I have the best hand here occasionally, but most of the A holdings he has have made 2 pair.

I decide to bluff (weak semi-bluff with 8 outs, no flush draw) and represent AJ  and pot it for $35

Do AQ or AT ever fold here? 

7:53 am
April 25, 2007


threads13

Member

Indiana

posts 349

Was he on the button?  I am curious to know if this is a blind battle.


I don't think any better two-pair is likely to let this go given your history.  If he has seen you playing back at him light, I think he would decide that two-pair is likely to be good here.


When you said his range you included Ax and Kx and 66+.  So, I would think that Ax(where x < T) is certainly in his range, as is AA-JJ(less likely with the JJ).  Also, I thin you should be worried about a hand like KJ that just made a straight.


I wouldn't count your draw as 8 outs.  I think that is a bit much.   Your straight outs need to be halved because that leads to a split pot.  I think you need to discount your boat outs slightly as well.  I would give your draw 5-6 outs if behind(which isn't necessarilly the case).  


What about checking the turn? 

8:29 am
April 25, 2007


Todd

Member

posts 427

Villain was in the CO.  Definitely a steal position for him.  He bets and raises a lot.  The weak guy to his right was getting pushed off 2 hands an orbit.

I'm discounting AA, KK and QQ on the turn quite a bit because he didn't shove the flop.  AK for the same reason, though I will buy a smooth call in position a bit more often. 

I agree that I don't have 8 full outs.  I should say I have as many as 8 outs.  6 is a good number on average.  It was really a bluff with some redraws.  Certainly not a big draw sort of semi-bluff. 

My range at the time was something like Ax(any x, but less likely AK), JT of course, KQ, Some stronger K's, though not too many.  Sometimes JJ.  I guess I was worried about AJ.  I wasn't very worried about KJ or QJ.  How often are you calling a stiff check raise with 2nd or 3rd pair and a gut shot?  Maybe I should have had KJ and QJ in his range more often, but KT and QT would have been there too.

I think checking and check/folding were fine options.  I chose to bluff (and I really considered it mostly a bluff).  I thought he was in there light.  I figured I was ahead often enough and had some redraws so that getting some better hands to fold once in a while was probably worth it.  But in retrospect, I was wondering if I could get AQ, KQ and/or AT to fold, which are the hands the bluff was aimed at.  He didn't have any of those, so this is really just an exercise in deciding how misguided the bluff was.  If those three hands don't fold, I should have check called or check folded.

I think you are probably right that he doesn't fold those too often. 


8:33 am
April 25, 2007


threads13

Member

Indiana

posts 349

Todd said:

 I wasn't very worried about KJ or QJ.  How often are you calling a stiff check raise with 2nd or 3rd pair and a gut shot?  Maybe I should have had KJ and QJ in his range more often, but KT and QT would have been there too.



If he has caught you bluffing, which I presume he has from your opening post, and doing tricky stuff he may very well call with a pair + GS draw if he thinks he can stack you if he hits.  


I just think that given your history it  is time to play him straight-up on a few hands because he is going to be wary of laying any quality hand down. 

8:51 am
April 25, 2007


Todd

Member

posts 427

That's a good read.  I gave him a lot less credit for calling with a gut shot.  I had slowed down quite a bit after the table filled up.  Clearly, I still hadn't restored my image to that of a sane player.  A long heads up session really messes with your full ring play.  It's just not the same game.

In any case, I was too narrow in my range and didn't give him credit for KJo, which he had.  He did put me on a straight (he asked if I had AJ in the chat before calling).

I think the bluff was overly ambitious against him, but isn't so bad against a tighter player with less history.  I think that a tight player has a harder time continueing with KJo when faced with a called raise pre-flop and a check raise post flop given that I was pretty shallow at the time.  That hand wouldn't be in his range so often.  I think AT does fold there enough and weak A's do call enough on the flop to warrent the bluff.

Thoughts? 

9:04 am
April 25, 2007


threads13

Member

Indiana

posts 349

Todd said:

That's a good read.  I gave him a lot less credit for calling with a gut shot.  I had slowed down quite a bit after the table filled up.  Clearly, I still hadn't restored my image to that of a sane player.  A long heads up session really messes with your full ring play.  It's just not the same game.

In any case, I was too narrow in my range and didn't give him credit for KJo, which he had.  He did put me on a straight (he asked if I had AJ in the chat before calling).

I think the bluff was overly ambitious against him, but isn't so bad against a tighter player with less history.  I think that a tight player has a harder time continueing with KJo when faced with a called raise pre-flop and a check raise post flop given that I was pretty shallow at the time.  That hand wouldn't be in his range so often.  I think AT does fold there enough and weak A's do call enough on the flop to warrent the bluff.

Thoughts? 


It's a shame I can't this as clearly when I am actually playing!Laughing


I think if you had a tight player and your image wasn't of a tricky bluffer dude, then I think you would be alright semi-bluffing this turn. 

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