Message Board : Blindstealing with a shortstack (NL)?

Todd said:

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. 

Although, not totally . 

I think a lot of opponents at the lower levels are willing to let go of middle and bottom pair when they are faced with a lot of aggression.  I am not saying that they SHOULD, I am saying that I believe they DO.

My point with the A7 hand is that you have more of a chance to improve than the 88 hand so getting to see a free card is more likely to help you.  I am not saying which one should be bet, I am saying that I am more likely to bet a hand like 88 with two overs as compared to bottom pair.  I can get rid of 88 when I am raised, but I can't as easily with A7.  As far as saying you think you are giving free cards with A7 more than you are getting free cards.  Obviously, this is very opponent dependent.   However, I don't think that bottom pair GENERALLY is a value betting hand in full ring - which is what you are talking about.

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It's probably a good thing that you don't agree with me completely.  I'm not that good a player.

I think that A7 and 88 are about the same hand.  Neither is very likely to improve.  You don't really wan't to get raised of either because both have some value.  I don't think you value bet with either.  Just that they have value and you'd like to see showdown cheaply.  

I'm a little surprised to hear you say that you wouldn't give up A7 to a raise on a board with 2 overs.  In my experience, my hand is rarely good there and I'm drawing really slim.  Is your experience different? 

The part about A7 is totally dependent on the situation. What I was getting at is that there is times I will make a call(dependent on the size of the raise, the size of the stacks, and my reads) if I think I am getting good implied odds to make the call.  Also, with something like A7 I may have some sort of BDFD to the nut flush that would give me a little help that I won't have with 88.  I am not saying that I am calling because I think my hand is best, although it may be against someone who overdefends his blinds, I am sometimes calling because I think that I may be able to stack my opponent when I improve.  

Having said all that, before I was saying that it is merely easier to get rid of 88, when there are 2 overs, to a raise than A7, when I hit bottom pair, because I have less outs with 88.  To go along with what I said from before.  If I think my opponent is likely to overdefend his blind then a flop check makes sense because I should be able to pull a lot of his stack when I hit one of my outs.  This doesn't work as well with 88 because I think the value of getting a fold is worth more than than the value/risk of a free card because of the lack of outs.