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10:54 pm
July 12, 2008
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threads13
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I don't have much on this guy. Can you guys help me out with ranges on each street and feel free to suggest different maneuvers on the turn and river.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.comFlopTurnRiver.com (Format: Plain Text)
CO ($50)
Button ($21.35)
SB ($105.05)
BB ($71.60)
Hero ($58.25)
MP ($44.50)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with Jd, Jc.
Hero raises to $1.5, MP calls $1.50, 1 fold, Button calls $1.50, 2 folds.
Flop: ($5.25) 5h, Th, Kc (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $2.5, Button folds, Hero calls $2.50.
Turn: ($10.25) Qs (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $2, Hero calls $2.
River: ($14.25) 5c (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $6, Hero…?
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2:55 pm
July 13, 2008
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HungryJ0e
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My opinion is there are many lines you can take with J-J UTG, none of them wrong. My default with medium and deeper stacks though is to make a stiff raise, usually 5x the blinds. If I take the blinds down, I'm pretty happy. Otherwise I can be in a difficult situation if mutliple players come in behind me postflop. So that's what I would have done preflop.
Postflop with two players behind me, an overcard, and two hearts my play is going to depend on my table image and how other players react to me. If they are mainly reacting to my play, I'll bet 2/3-3/4 the pot and try and take it down. If it's the reverse, I may simply check and go away queitly should someone make a serious move at the pot. If they check in then I'll make my play on the turn.
Personally I don't like the passive line you took by check-calling with an underpair. The turn makes you open ended, but completes several hands that may have been playing against you. On the river there is nothing you can beat but a bluff. He's fired at the pot three times, if he's bluffing he's got some stones. I'd let the hand go.
Cheers,
- HJ
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8:17 am
July 24, 2008
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toebori
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i used to make larger than “normal” preflop raises with hands like JJ & TT
for the obvious reasons many of us do. from the start this begins a big pot
when called and tips our hand strength (weakness). it’s like we are trying to
make up for the fact that this isn’t one of the “premium” top pairs (but oh so
close to them) by overcompensating with a big raise.
i’m not so concerned anymore with winning a small pot with these hands as
not losing a big one. the first step in that direction is a “normal” size open raise.
if i flop a set or overpair i’m taking the driver’s seat- otherwise i’m looking for
a reason to fold to signs of strength. a large preflop raise makes that fold more
difficult.
tobori
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7:32 pm
July 24, 2008
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AKQJ10
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It's interesting about check-calling with an underpair. I've tried it only on occasion, and not really liked the results, but that's a small sample.
Theoretical reason to check/call:
- You're somewhat ahead/way behind (not quite WA/WB, because there are still two overcards you don't want to see on the flop), so you'd like to get to showdown cheaply.
- It's unlikely that a made hand worse than jacks is going to call you more than once, so check-calling produces some value against those hands, whereas betting produces none except from draws. (This and the preceding point could be summed up as “pot control”.)
- All straight draws are crippled by you holding two of the jacks. An OESD with JT is less likely, and a gutshot like Q9 gets there less often and only if you make a set (giving you a 10-out redraw if it hits on the turn).
Theoretical reason to bet/fold to raise or bet flop and check turn
- “Betting for information”; The sooner you can define the hand, the happier you'll be. If your opponent doesn't float (call) the flop bet light or semibluff a lot, but remains in the hand, then you'll figure you're behind and can fold.
- Betting for protection: You may well be ahead. A flush draw and an ace or queen are still threatening draws, and 3-handed you start to worry about giving them a free card.
However, if your opponents are astute enough to corrupt the information you receive, the classic pitfall to betting for information is that the info you get back isn't worth much, so you shouldn't have paid for it.
All-in-all this is a very tough situation. I don't like always abandoning a raised pot here at all, but being OOP makes things very tricky, and OOP in a 3-way pot is even worse. (Note that IP you could bet the flop, check behind on the turn, and then perhaps call a river bet or perhaps not; being OOP means you have to play one more betting round that you'd rather not.)
Ideally I'd try to mix up the following lines:
- 40%: check/fold
- 20%: check/call flop (if bet is from an aggressive player) and check/fold turn
- 20%: bet flop and check/fold turn
- 10%: 2-barrel flop and turn
- 10%: “Exotic lines” — check/raise flop (if bet from an aggressive player), 3-barrel, etc.
I don't play a lot online but NL50 is high enough to require mixing up one's play, isn't it? This sort of hand is good for that because it's so marginal. Basically to any significant action, all you have is a bluff or a bluff-catcher.
Remember that check/folding here isn't losing you much value, because JJ underpair OOP isn't going to win you much anyway.
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1:34 pm
July 25, 2008
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HungryJ0e
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toebori said:
i used to make larger than “normal” preflop raises with hands like JJ & TT
for the obvious reasons many of us do. from the start this begins a big pot
when called and tips our hand strength (weakness). it’s like we are trying to
make up for the fact that this isn’t one of the “premium” top pairs (but oh so
close to them) by overcompensating with a big raise.
i’m not so concerned anymore with winning a small pot with these hands as
not losing a big one. the first step in that direction is a “normal” size open raise.
if i flop a set or overpair i’m taking the driver’s seat- otherwise i’m looking for
a reason to fold to signs of strength. a large preflop raise makes that fold more
difficult.
tobori
Tobori -
Odds of flopping an overpair with JJ: 36%, or roughly 1.75 to 1, which is not as high as some people may think. Additionally hands where you flop an overpair with JJ are more likely than usual to be coordinated.
Odds of flopping a set with JJ: 11.8% or 7.5 to 1, which is a small but nonetheless significant amount
In the games I play in (2-5 and 5-10 live action), a 3x bet UTG results in a multiway pot a very high percentage of the time (probably around 75%).
So if I flop an overpair it is probably on a coordinated board and I'm out of position in a multiway pot. This is not a situation where I want to play for stacks (unless they are shallow), so betting out here puts me in an uncomfortable situation if someone calls (or raises!), particularly as there are now lots of turn cards that could be bad bad bad.
I don't want to put myself in that situation, which is why my “usual” (75%) play with JJ or 10-10 UTG is to bet out for 5x. I'll make adjustments for who I'm playing against and how deep the stacks are, but I'm looking for one caller, and SPR around 6, and I'm c-betting a high percentage of the time. If I get multiple callers, great as the SPR is now lower, although I'm c-betting much less frequently. If I take down the pot preflop, that's fine as well.
Adjustments:
- If the stacks are deep, I may limp in more preflop hoping to hit a set. Also there are typically one or two wild players in the games I play (I realize this probably isn't valid for online play), so a checkraise is an option as well. If the stacks are *really* deep (150 BB or more) I go back to raising more frequently, although now for a slightly different reason: to bloat the pot preflop, but still hoping for a set.
- If the stacks are shallow, I lower my raise amount (2.5x to 3.5x), unless the stacks are so shallow (10 BB or less) that pushing all-in preflop becomes attractive.
- If the game is very loose preflop with lots of oversized raises, live straddles, and restraddles, I increase my raise size to 7-10x preflop. However, I'm not just doing that with JJ, I'm doing it with all my preflop raises. Also, I'm calling home and letting them know I will be late.
What are other people's thoughts about JJ UTG?
Cheers,
- HJ
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4:30 pm
July 25, 2008
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mbuss
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HungryJ0e said:
my “usual” (75%) play with JJ or 10-10 UTG is to bet out for 5x
I just hate the idea of varying the size of your raise based on your hand.
I generally play .25/.50 online. Mashing the “bet pot” button to open raise preflop equals a bet of $1.75. If you play a lot, you get used to seeing that number. So when someone open raises $1.50 or $2.00 or $2.50, it almost always means something. And I think even the least observant player will notice that. They may not be able to interpret what your bet means, but they'll know something is up. And the better players will be able to manipulate you so easily because you're playing your hand face up.
Live play is certainly a different dynamic. Playing in LA, I might argue that a 5x raise isn't even larger than normal, but rather a standard raise. But I still think that if you're raising some hands 3x and others 5x, or some 5x and others 8x, you're giving away too much information.
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2:32 am
July 26, 2008
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AKQJ10
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mbuss said:
HungryJ0e said:
my “usual” (75%) play with JJ or 10-10 UTG is to bet out for 5x
I just hate the idea of varying the size of your raise based on your hand.
I tend to talk myself out of playing a hand with the “optimal” raise size — say, in this hand which 2+2 accurately told me I should have just shoved when I decided to reraise preflop. The point is, shoving feels wrong as though I'm announcing “I'm on a bluff,” even though I was probably way ahead of everyone's range anyway!
But I think the suggestion by Miller and Sklansky in NLHE:TAP is much better. Don't raise the same amount every time. Play most of your hands as you think the optimal raise size should be. Occasionally mix it up so that your opponents will be dissuaded from trying to figure it out.
Also, the last half of PNLHE is all about how you shouldn't just make “standard” raises without regard for how your hand will play postflop, right?
So when someone open raises $1.50 or $2.00 or $2.50, it almost always means something. And I think even the least observant player will notice that. They may not be able to interpret what your bet means, but they'll know something is up. And the better players will be able to manipulate you so easily because you're playing your hand face up.
Actually I often make a silly adjustment to the “bet pot” amount for no reason whatsoever, to keep astute opponents guessing. (Other times I'll minraise when I want to see a cheap flop, only occasionally minraising with a premium pair for cover.) I'm glad to know my efforts to generate “static” are working online.  Live $1-3, however, no one gives a crap why I'm raising to the numbers I choose.
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9:07 am
July 26, 2008
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toebori
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you have probably heard people say that there is no way to play a hand like
JJ right. regardless of how you size your preflop raise i feel this problem is
because the hand is overplayed- what else could it be ?
in the games i play ( $2-5 & $5-10 live) you aren’t going to push out any hand that
would have called a 3-4 BB raise until your up around 7-8 BBs and then you may
as well turn your cards face up. yes you could play AA or KK the same way and trap an
opponent now and then but who wants to risk folds all around with those infrequent
power hands.
i feel the hand is overplayed more often when the initial raise is large. for the
value you may get pushing out a hand like KQ or AT is that initial larger raise
worth it to anybody who’s not a true pro ?
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7:40 am
July 27, 2008
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HungryJ0e
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mbuss said:
I just hate the idea of varying the size of your raise based on your hand.
I generally play .25/.50 online. Mashing the “bet pot” button to open raise preflop equals a bet of $1.75. If you play a lot, you get used to seeing that number. So when someone open raises $1.50 or $2.00 or $2.50, it almost always means something. And I think even the least observant player will notice that. They may not be able to interpret what your bet means, but they'll know something is up. And the better players will be able to manipulate you so easily because you're playing your hand face up.
Live play is certainly a different dynamic. Playing in LA, I might argue that a 5x raise isn't even larger than normal, but rather a standard raise. But I still think that if you're raising some hands 3x and others 5x, or some 5x and others 8x, you're giving away too much information.
One certainly can't argue that altering pre-flop raise sizes gives away information. However due to the geometric progression of NL pots, the effect of your preflop raise is amplified dramatically throughout the remaining betting rounds. While you give out less information with a standard raise, you lose one of your major tools for shaping the pot size to your benefit and determining how many players will be seeing the flop.
Consider that there are multiple factors for a preflop raise size in addition to hand strength: table image, looseness of the game, position relative to your target players, and stack sizes to name a few. Add a bit of randomization into your routine, and you significantly dilute the information value to an outside observer. Even expert hand readers who have observed you for some time are going to have difficulty based on your preflop raise alone. Saying that you are playing your hand face up is certainly an overstatement.
While it's true in my experience that the typical online .25-.50 game is more challenging than a live action 2-5 game, I'm not sure that's an arguement for going with a standard raise either. If anything, you need to exploit your advantages to an even larger degree. Different situations call for different raise sizes. And even though “most players” make standard raise sizes, that's no arguement either. You need ways to play better than, not the same as, “most players” or else why are you playing?
When contemplating my preflop strategy, I will go back to hands that put me in trouble spots during the flop/turn/river (regardless of whether I won or lost the hand) and consider how changes in my preflop play would have avoided those decisions (this was probably my biggest takeaway from PNHLE). I'd encourage anyone looking to develop/tweak their preflop strategy to do the same.
Cheers,
- HJ
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8:23 am
July 27, 2008
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HungryJ0e
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toebori said:
in the games i play ( $2-5 & $5-10 live) you aren’t going to push out any hand that
would have called a 3-4 BB raise until your up around 7-8 BBs and then you may
as well turn your cards face up. yes you could play AA or KK the same way and trap an
opponent now and then but who wants to risk folds all around with those infrequent
power hands.
i feel the hand is overplayed more often when the initial raise is large. for the
value you may get pushing out a hand like KQ or AT is that initial larger raise
worth it to anybody who’s not a true pro ?
The effect of the intial raise is going to be felt as the hand progresses. Let's say I have a caller (outside the BB) who will call for 3x-6x and fold for anything greater. Let's say the betting will go 2/3 of the pot for the flop, turn and river, and the SB covers the rake and dealer's tip.
After betting the pot is…
3x bet preflop: 7x preflop, 16x flop, 38x turn, 89x river
5x bet preflop: 11x preflop, 26x flop, 60x turn, 140x river
6x bet preflop: 13x preflop, 30x flop, 71x turn, 165x river
So the difference between the 3x and 6x bet means the player who is getting the worst of it is only out an additional 3x BB preflop, by the river he's out an additional 76x BB! I'd say that value is worth it, whether you are a true pro or a rank novice.
As far as altering the play for the rest of your cards, with medium stacks I'd say if you made the same 5-6x raise UTG with AK half the time and KK/QQ one quarter of the time you'd be doing more than enough to keep them guessing (varying the raise with JJ and 10's to limp and 3x raise an eighth of the time each). If the game is weak, you can make the same raise with AQ and then you're golden. AA I would raise 5-6x UTG very infrequently, unless of course there were poor players out there who I could expect to call with high frequency, in which case it would become my standard play to isolate them.
Cheers,
- HJ
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9:10 am
July 27, 2008
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toebori
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HungryJ0e said:
toebori said:
in the games i play ( $2-5 & $5-10 live) you aren’t going to push out any hand that
would have called a 3-4 BB raise until your up around 7-8 BBs and then you may
as well turn your cards face up. yes you could play AA or KK the same way and trap an
opponent now and then but who wants to risk folds all around with those infrequent
power hands.
i feel the hand is overplayed more often when the initial raise is large. for the
value you may get pushing out a hand like KQ or AT is that initial larger raise
worth it to anybody who’s not a true pro ?
The effect of the intial raise is going to be felt as the hand progresses. Let’s say I have a caller (outside the BB) who will call for 3x-6x and fold for anything greater. Let’s say the betting will go 2/3 of the pot for the flop, turn and river, and the SB covers the rake and dealer’s tip.
After betting the pot is…
3x bet preflop: 7x preflop, 16x flop, 38x turn, 89x river
5x bet preflop: 11x preflop, 26x flop, 60x turn, 140x river
6x bet preflop: 13x preflop, 30x flop, 71x turn, 165x river
So the difference between the 3x and 6x bet means the player who is getting the worst of it is only out an additional 3x BB preflop, by the river he’s out an additional 76x BB! I’d say that value is worth it, whether you are a true pro or a rank novice.
i agree so why start a big pot with a little pair of jacks ? i’m saying don’t start a big pot
with a little hand. how are you making a counterpoint using my own arguement ?
and yes, claiming you mite as well be playing your cards face up was an obvious overstatement.
but when a guy has sized his raise 3-4 BBs for hours the open raise twice that size will
be a medium pair a large percentage of the time- he wants whats in the pot now and would
rather not see a flop.
why are jacks a notoriously difficult hand ? because they are overplayed and that starts with
a large preflop raise where you are limiting your callers to those that can beat you and pushing
out the hands you have a good chance against (like smaller pairs and suited connectors).
i’m certainly no authourity and am only suggesting that it may be better to stay out of big
trouble with this difficult hand than try and squeeze more out of it than its worth.
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11:49 am
July 27, 2008
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HungryJ0e
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toebori said:
i agree so why start a big pot with a little pair of jacks ? i’m saying don’t start a big pot
with a little hand. how are you making a counterpoint using my own arguement ?
We're talking about the 4th best starting hand in Hold'em, it certainly has a place as one of the premium pairs. You shouldn't be scared of playing them hard preflop. I'm more than comfortable building a pot with them preflop, while I still have the advantage. If a tight player reraises me, I may abandon them, but I'd rather do it now while I only have 5x BB invested than later on in the hand…
My response on pot sizes was based on this post: you said anyone in your game who will call a 3x BB raise will also call a 6x BB raise, and then you asked the question “is that larger raise worth it to anyone who is not a true pro?” I'm demonstrating to you the implications of that raise, by the river it most certainly valuable!
If you read my initial post, I also stated that IMHO there are several ways to play JJ UTG. Limping in with them and making a smaller (or even min) raise are both fine plays. However in the games I play, making the 5x raise works well for me.
Whether you want the pot size to be that large or not depends on many circumstances, but the most important factor is how large a pot will your opponents play against your overpair profitably. Against weaker players who will push top pair (or middle pair!) like the nuts, you want to bet as large as possible preflop while still enabling them to call with a wide range.
Cheers,
- HJ
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3:12 pm
July 27, 2008
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toebori
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when we post about poker i know i’m guilty of relating my experience
in the games i play as being “poker” while there are many different
types of the same game.
in the live and loose games i play you usually have 3 to 5 players seeing
a raised flop. while JJ is among the top starting hands it is not fear but
common sense that suggests you not kick off a large pot with this hand.
i think my advice to others in the same type game is valid. i looked over
Ed’s starting hand strategy he presented in many installments on this
site and found nothing about larger than normal raises with “medium”
pairs.
to argue the point further is not needed. i respect the other views presented
and understand them. the “best” strategy in certain type games probably is to
make a larger than normal raise with this hand but it is my opinion that creating
a larger pot in this case causes more problems than it helps eliminate for the
average player- just ask them (us).
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2:22 am
September 17, 2008
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karbyn
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I'd tend to raise slightly more, only b/c you are EP. If another EP calls, you might drag in a bunch of drawing hands. You want to limit your field. A small raise lets more people in and could easily build a bigger pot ( or, at least pot control is out of your hands ). If you put in, say 4-5BB, you are not out much if you have to fold on the flop. If you get a favourable flop, bet hard and make them pay for another card.
Having said all that, most books say fold JJ UTG :-}
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HungryJ0e said:
Odds of flopping an overpair with JJ: 36%, or roughly 1.75 to 1, which is not as high as some people may think.
The odds that the flop will have an overcard to your Jacks, AND will not give you a set, is 52%, or just a little worse than even for you. Using your terms, the odds of flopping to an overpair (or set) with JJ is 48%. You have to count the two outcomes together, as both are favorable for you.
The actual chance of just seeing an overcard is worse than that (about 57% the flop will have at least one A, K, or Q), but obviously you discount it for the portion of those times when you also make a set.
For pocket Qs, 38% of flops will have an overcard and no set for you. For pocket Ks, 21% of flops will have an overcard and no set for you.
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1:01 pm
October 20, 2008
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AKQJ10
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Exactly, spadebidder. Jacks can often flop middle set, which is one of the most profitable situations in hold 'em.
The problem isn't raising JJ for value, or raising it and getting called. The problem is that playing postflop OOP is tough even for good players, and impossible for not-yet-good players.
If you check-folded JJ unimproved every time the flop left you with an underpair, you wouldn't be losing much. If you make balancing plays with other strong-to-monster hands (e.g. check-call AA occasionally) to prevent highway robbery, you shouldn't have any reason to overplay your jacks.
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4:29 pm
October 20, 2008
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vb_rounder
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I would never check this flop as the pf raiser, and being a 6-max game it's unthinkable. you gave up control of the hand on a semi-decent flop and check called down with basically no clue where you stood in the hand. MP player could be value betting here w/ a K, semibluffing a heart draw, or betting a smaller pair hoping you'll just go away. you are setting yourself up here to either call 3 bets w/ a losing hand, or possibly get bluffed out on the river.
I would raise pf 3-4x, c-bet the flop $3-3.50 or so, and re-evaluate on the turn if i got any callers. If MP raises your flop c-bet, consider calling and then check-folding on the turn if he fires again, a heart falls, or you don't improve.
just my 2 cents.
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11:59 am
October 22, 2008
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AKQJ10
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Control of the hand
@vb_rounder,
IMO it's important to clarify what we mean by “control of the hand”. Aggression as a general approach is fine, but when aggression pushes out worse hands and pays off better ones, sometimes passivity can actually be more profitable.
I agree that check-calling 3 rounds unimproved isn't good unless you think your opponent is fairly likely to 3-barrel middle pair or worse. You really want to get at least one, probably two, betting rounds checked down, but that's hard to do OOP.
What do you hope to accomplish with “control of the hand”? In concrete terms, suppose you bet JJ on the flop and a slightly unpredictable but not terrible opponent on the button floats. How do you now exploit your control of the hand?
(You say to “re-evaluate”, but I'd rather discuss here the different plans we could come up with before making a flop bet.)
Also, you advocate bet-calling a raise, then check-folding on the turn. How is this any better against an aggressive opponent who will occasionally two-barrel than check-calling the flop and not the turn? Seems to me that in either case, you're willing to call one aggressive action without “knowing where you're at,” but not two.
Another JJ hand
I thought of this thread a couple of nights ago in a $2-5 game, me in the BB $200 or so deep, with JJ. With 5 or 6 limps I made it $35 to go, got 3 callers (which tells you how good this game should be, since I was playing really tight to that point). The flop came K88. I check-folded to a bet from the last-position player.
Perhaps a little weak tight, but I figured the preflop calls were paying me 3:1, my hand was even-money to flop an overpair or better, and getting so much action made it moderately likely I was against a K or 8.
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