Message Board : About that commitment threshold...

Ed, 

I just finished reading the new book.  It is quite good and it has opened my mind up quite a bit.  I was thinking about some things with the comittment threshold and such.  Could you help clear this up a little bit for me?  

I was thinking about the big overpairs hands like AA/KK.  I was thinking that when I get in a situation will a low-middle SPR on the flop against a tight player that this will cause some comittment problems.  Specifically I was wondering what good does betting the flop against a very tight player who calls a preflop raise.

Here is an example:

Say a player limps UTG with a stack of 40BB.  I am sitting in LP with AA and I have about 100BB.  I decide that I want to raise and get a targer SPR fairly low against just this guy.  I realize I need to raise a normal amount so that I am likely to get it HU or 3-way against him.  I decide to raise to 5BB as this will give me a 3.5(considering the blinds raked away) SPR if he calls. I feel this is good to consider to commited if I flop an overpair.  I raise and get called by a very tight SB with 100BB and my UTG raiser folds.  This isn't the result I was hoping for and now I have an SPR of ~9.5 against a tight player.  This is higher than my max SPR so I am not wanting to just commit with an overpair.  Now, say the flop comes Qxx two-toned.  I am giving this tight blind a range of primarly KK-TT and AK.  Also,  I think that KK and QQ are mostly discounted.  There are ~10BB in the pot so if I make a pot-sized bet then I am at the commitment threshold(the pot is 20BB and the smallest stack is 85, this is 4.25x the pot).  Now, at this point I need to have a comittment plan in mind.  If he raiises me, say to 30BB) he is crossing the threshold and saying that he wants to play a big pot.  I have already decided that I don't want to play a big pot so my play is to fold.  I really don't like this result.  

First of off, I am looking at the threshold correctly, right?  Once the pot is 4x the smallest stack then that is the threshold.  It isn't the threshold only once he calls, right?  This brings on the next question… isn't there an advantage when you are the one to cross the threshold?  The person who puts in the big bet after the commitment threshold is putting a lot of pressure on their opponent.  In the above example the tight player can put me in a tough spot by simply c/r'ing me on the flop.   After thinking about his range and how to maximize against it(see… I read it ) it seems that if he is decent he will be lay down AK and overpairs here or c/r me with them and put me in a tough spot.  Is the best play to check the flop to keep the pot small and keep the comitment threshold further back.  If he bets into us on the turn and we call we likely won't have to make a commitment decision and the pot size will be in a happier place.  This also would have the added benefit of getting him to play his overpairs harder since our hand doesn't look like AA.

Love the new book… as you can see it has me thinking more clearly already.  Now I am going to back to those questions that you said would be answered in it and apply my new knowledge! 

cougarred said:

threads13 said:

Say a player limps UTG with a stack of 40BB.  I am sitting in LP with AA and I have about 100BB.  I decide that I want to raise and get a targer SPR fairly low against just this guy.  I realize I need to raise a normal amount so that I am likely to get it HU or 3-way against him.  I decide to raise to 5BB as this will give me a 3.5(considering the blinds raked away) SPR if he calls. I feel this is good to consider to commited if I flop an overpair.  I raise and get called by a very tight SB with 100BB and my UTG raiser folds.  This isn't the result I was hoping for and now I have an SPR of ~9.5 against a tight player.  This is higher than my max SPR so I am not wanting to just commit with an overpair.  Now, say the flop comes Qxx two-toned.  I am giving this tight blind a range of primarly KK-TT and AK.  Also,  I think that KK and QQ are mostly discounted.  There are ~10BB in the pot so if I make a pot-sized bet then I am at the commitment threshold(the pot is 20BB and the smallest stack is 85, this is 4.25x the pot).  Now, at this point I need to have a comittment plan in mind.  If he raiises me, say to 30BB) he is crossing the threshold and saying that he wants to play a big pot.  I have already decided that I don't want to play a big pot so my play is to fold.  I really don't like this result.  

 

First of off, I am looking at the threshold correctly, right?  Once the pot is 4x the smallest stack then that is the threshold.  It isn't the threshold only once he calls, right? 

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SPR is only measured by the final preflop pot size.  The commitment threshold is when 10-11% of the smallest stack goes in.

So, in your example, if you bet 5xBB preflop at 100xBB stack and get called by a stack the same size, and then you bet 10xBB on the flop and he calls (or raises), there is now (at least) 30xBB in the pot and 85xBB in your stack so Stack is at most 3x pot, not 4.25x.

Bottom line, with the flop bet you put 15xBB in from a 100xBB stack.  That's more than 10-11%.  You can't put any more money in without a commitment plan. 

I know that SPR only refers to the relationship between the final size of the preflop to and the smallest stack. 

I have only been through the book 1 time but from as I remember the commitment threshold is when 10% of the smallest stack has went in or when the pot is 4x the smallest stack.  It is just two different tricks.  It looks like I am just remembering this incorrectly, but I will have to take a look.

However, I think you are missing what my questions were. You pretty much repeated what I said…

First off, when I asked about it I was asking whether the commitment threshold is when I would bet the flop or when he is calling.  Since we both have the same size stacks it seems to me that once I bet 10BB on the flop that the commitment threshold has been reached.  Is the that case?  Just looking for some clearity here.  I know that we are needing a commitment plan once we reach the threshold I was just wanting clearity on when the threshold is actually occuring in the given example.

Also, I would love to hear some feedback on what I was saying about the first bet after the commitment threshold putting a lot of pressure on an opponent.