The No-Limit Toolbox — The Flop Overbet Semibluff

Nitpick: isn’t the pot in your example $60? ;-P

Are you sure about your last definition, Ed? I could be wrong, but I’ve always seen the size of the pot defined as the size of the pot when it gets to you.

Looking at the language more closely, I’m guessing that you’re looking at it from the perspective of the opponent, who will need to call $170 to win a $90 pot. But normally, when I think of a PSR, if the pot is $60 when it gets to me, I will bet $60 for a PSR. Semantics, I suppose. I still like the example and love this series, so please carry on, Ed. Looking forward to the new book.

Pot limit games define a pot sized raise as a call + a bet the size of the pot after the call.

James, I don’t think it is semantics, as the difference in your definition has a significant impact on the odds you would be setting your opponent.

In the example above, Ed would bet $120 total for a PSR, meaning the villain had to pay $90 into a $180 pot. Whereas you state you would bet $60 for a PSR raise meaning the villain had to pay $30 into a $120 pot.

That’s a big difference in pot odds, which is why you look at the size of your raise as the bet your opponent will be facing. In the above example, your PSR would only be a min raise, which I’m sure you wouldn’t do.

I never really thought about this definition before, but including the “call-part” of your bet makes sense, now that you mention pot odds. By this definition a PSR lays 2-to-1. ALWAYS! And that’s probably why PL exists as a middle-way between NL and limit: put a cap to how “bad” the odds are that you can possibly lay.

Just my 2 cents.

I thank you guys for the clarification, and I will use your definition of “call + a bet the size of the pot after the call” from now on as PSR.

Hi there,

I’ve been thinking about this move lately and doing some rough theoretical calculations to help me justify the move as a +EV move in my head.

My question is, as this seems to be a play that what I’m assuming can be quite high variance, I’m just wondering what size bankroll you should have before you incorporate it as a standard part of your strategy?

I’m not sure how to go about calculating something like this or I would do it myself.

Will.

I’ve read that yeah and I understand what you’re saying.

I was just assuming that due to it being quite possible to run poor and miss your draws more often than the expected percentage and the possibility of not getting a fold as often as you would expect in general then you could, in theory, be down a quite a few BI due to this play, in the short term.

I’m not that worried about my BR as I’m still playing micro. Just thought that I would inquire about your thoughts. I guess I’m being a bit weak and thinking about what I could lose rather than what I could win.

Thanks for your reply anyway. Will.

Is this pretty much the technique of “Big Online Winner” described by Phil Gordon in the Green Book?

I had some problems with it, at least the way it was described as “unbeatable” in Gordon’s book, and wrote about it in my post “Add it up“. Namely, when you mix up your play in that you go all-in with draws and flopped sets so that your opponent’s don’t know which one it is this time, draws are more common than sets since you can have a set in 3 different ways, but a draw in perhaps 6 to 16 ways, depending on whether it is suited.

This may be too broad a question, but I would like to see something written on defining bets;i.e. situations, size of bet, which streets,interpretation of action that follows. If you can refer me to sources in any books, I would appreciate it.

Bill

Just felt compelled to say that I just found this site and I’m astonished at how good it is. Nice one Ed

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