Does Poker Keep Getting Harder and Harder?

Ed, are you suggesting that it would behoove pros or serious recreational players to invest the time to learn No Limit? Do you know many pros who have attempted to convert? If so, what would the breakdown be of successes/failures?

Ed, thanks for sharing your insights.

Why, do you think, it was limit poker that gained from the influx in 2004? Why didn’t the focus start and end with NL, instead of the shift you perceive?

This might sound somewhat naive, but I sometimes find this strategy of “just-find-the-fish” a bit short-sighted. I do realize that, at certain level, professionals depend their living on playing against weak players. But, nevertheless, isn’t the goal of any serious hobby to become the best player possible? (Ie. not everyone has the potential to become the best player, just like you stated in your interview.)

In this sense, it doesn’t matter whether the games are getting tougher or not. If one has the potential to learn, can’t you just become a better player than most? The fact that games are tougher is just more incentive to learn faster.

Of course, margins and rakes are of concern here. The differences might become too narrow for the game to be profitable enough for the better players. But still, better players should eventually be more successfull than worse players, right?

Poker does have a special relation with money as compared to other games, ie. it is played for money and with money, but I feel as though poker players could learn from other games: the objective would be to become a better player and regard any financial rewards to be a beneficial side-effect.

So, winning money, in the (very) long run, should be the goal of a serious player, but mostly in the sense that money is the measure of success in poker. Just like a tennis player would be satisfied with the number of games she has won.

(Note too that I myself don’t automatically assume that I necessarily have the potential to become a decent player. Some level of optimism is needed, of course, but it seems that everyone believes they are better than “the average”. Actually, what I personally worry most, is that I don’t become a good player and fail to notice that.)

Well, I don’t think that limit games have gotten that much harder, but they certainly aren’t as good as they were two years ago. I expect the process will happen much faster at no-limit too.

Hi Ed

I am as you know a limit player and was wondering why you think NL attracts the fish more. I would have thought they would go where they percieved the lowest risk to be,
i.e. you have mentioned before that they like shorthanded as they think they stand more chance there.

I can’t help thinking that the reason NL is getting the fish is because of the publicity and over time this will die down as fish who get beaten at NL move to limit to try and mitigate there losses.

It may be naive of me but I can’t help thinking that if I was a losing player I would move to somewhere taht sounded less risky than something called No Limit.

by the way Microlimits on line are still swarming with fish (-; and probably always will be.

Peter

My Blog

[...] Are games getting tougher with all the great instructional books out there? Ed Miller agrees that they might get tougher, but it’s not because of books. His post is well worth reading, but you get to decide for yourself if you agree with him or not. [...]

Couple of weeks ago there was a on two+two from someone asking for advice on the most profitable way to play $3/$6 live. Interspersed between the several recommendations to read SSHE were these gems:

“Don’t expect pockets to do much.
Play every suited connector you get.
You make money in that game by hitting your draws.”

“The most profitable way??? Don’t play. Find a better game where players will actually fold.”

“If the game is loose passive like you say you shouldn’t raise much before the flop at all.

There are two reasons to raise pre-flop 1) build the pot 2) get others to fold. If nobody will fold anyway and big pairs rarely stand up when 4 people cold call a raise then why raise at all before the flop. I know this is highly controversial but in the loose/passive live games I play in it has worked for me. See the flop and go from there.”

“If you can’t adjust your play in these types of games you will loose [sic] when you raise from early position with TT and get four callers.”

“I actually muck AKo and AQo under some circumstances in this type of game (heresy!), because these hands DO NOT play well in loose multiway pots (also: if you’re dealing with a player who relies on average raising-hand distributions, you need to bias the distribution away from AK/AQ so that he’s more likely to be making an error by calling you down).”

This advice is being given on two+two, where the penetration of the Ed Miller methods ought to be multiples higher than it is in the general poker playing population. I read this thread and thought to myself if Ed saw it he would be cringing that his books and his and many other good players contributions to the Small Stakes forums on two+two were so easily overlooked or discounted.

But it sure does buttress Ed’s point that neither his nor anyone else’s writings are changing the character of the games.

Hi Rasta

Well I play 15/30 c and 25/50c and have made $2000 in 3 months playing aggressively preflop and after the flop so I totally agree with you.

I am pleased however that not everyone is taking on Ed’s ideas the less of us the better, hopefully they will buy his books, so as he makes a living and can keep giving advice, and then ignore that good advice.

It is since reading SSHE that I have become a winning player and I look forward to his NL book next year as I am still a complete fish at NL.

Anyway I think we should question all advice whether from Ed Sklansky or a 2+2 forum member and hopefully improve.

What Ed has that no other author I have come across seems to have is humility and connection with his audience, he is always learning and questyioning and wants to hear from others. He may not agree but he will think about it.

I look forward to learning more from this site and trust the advice on it, I hope one day to graduate to $3/$6 games and I won’t play weak tight as 2+2 ers seem to be suggesting

Peter
My Blog

Ed, as someone who works at his day job in a key role in the Open Source and Free Software Movement who also happens to be an avid poker player, I found it absolutely wonderful to read someone like yourself coming “out” about your views on the freedom of generally useful technical information. Thanks for not hiding your views about that! I can tell you there’s a least one other person floating around the poker world who agrees with you on it!

rasta,

That is an excellent point. I think I jumped in that thread (and hopefully gave better advice than mucking AK because it can’t win multiway) so your sample isn’t representative.

People oddly forget that big preflop hands are allowed to make big postflop hands. They can explain why 33 is great seven ways, but but are somehow unable to apply that thinking to QQ! I’m endebted to SSHE for really understanding this concept, even though I hardly play limit ever now.

Wow, a post with both the old open-source “free beer” saw and an apt crypto comparison. Given Ed’s IT background that shouldn’t be surprising, i suppose. Do you give career advice for jaded ex-techies, Ed?

Damn but I love reading Ed’s posts. Learning and smiling at the same time is a great combo.

For my $.02, besides tv, one of the main reasons a multitude of players went to nl is because they were losing at limit. This was often detected at the limit tables when I heard such idio-logic as (when their A’s or K’s were cracked) ” That’s why I hate limit, that doesn’t happen at no limit where I can protect my hand !”

But at least now when i’m at the nl table with the same players and they “get ‘em cracked” they can rant for an hour how the idiot wasn’t getting the odds. Or complain when they overbet the pot about how they can’t get action on their good hands…..Don’t ya just love it !

I would follow these guys to 3-card monty if that’s what tv fires up next. ( I have no idea about this game, so I will be expecting a book from Ed )

Hi everybody!
Reading through some poker forums I noticed many fresh posts by people who seem to having read at least a few good poker books with questions about hands… and well, I am a novice, but often I can see why their plays were bad. So no need to worry about too much of education in books!
PeterL, I play mostly .10/.20 and .05/.10 limit games (but have a full time job so I’m short on time to spend at tables). What should be my hour winning rate? I’m a winning player but I don’t win that much as you mentioned.
Regards,
Pawel

Love the comments - I play low limit loose passive and loose aggressive games. Ed gave me some great advice and I have been following most of it (I would be lying if I said different).

rasta - Turning passive since your KK gets beat is not the way to go. My KK got beat so much that I started tracking AA-TT live. 135 of the last PP won AA-70%,KK-37%,QQ-52%,JJ-42%,TT-25%.

So, I raise with AA-QQ everytime and JJ-TT most of the time and take my chances. Since my KK win 1/3 of the time I think I am ahead since I will lose 2-6 BB 63% and win 8-12 BB 37%. Know when to dump them.

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Great site Ed, some of the best articles I have seen - a great sanity check. Many thanks, Jazz Poker!

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