Comments on: Combatting Light 3-Bets By 4-Betting Or Calling In Position http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/combatting-light-3-bets-by-4-betting-or-calling-in-position.html Training poker players into professional players Wed, 08 Feb 2012 22:32:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Optisizier http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/combatting-light-3-bets-by-4-betting-or-calling-in-position.html/comment-page-1#comment-13255 Optisizier Wed, 07 May 2008 22:19:16 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/?p=445#comment-13255 Ed, I have to say there are two things I don't completely agree on with you in this article. I don't think you're wrong, but I would like to add a bit more to what you say, see if you agree, so if you don't mind... 1) When you call a 3-bet with a suited connector or a similar hand on the assumption that the pot will be big enough on the flop, so that your intention is to (check)raise all in in case you hit a strong draw or else you fold, then your position shouldn't matter much, thus you should be able to call out of position as well, which will only make you the more annoying to play against.... 2) That is, you intend to fold unless the flop instead falls very dry, in which case you will (check)raise, because as opposed to what you say that won't cost you more than doing it your way, which was to call the flop, bet the turn. Doing it your way costs (according to your example) 32 + 55 = 87. But raising 2.5 - 3 his bet directly on the flop would cost somewhere between 80 - 96. Argument for doing it your way, in position would be, you gain confidence your hand is best thanks to him checking the turn to you, or you can fold if he bets. Argument for raising directly on the flop in or out of position would be that you won't let your opponent make his hand you for no higher cost than his mandatory continuation bet. And in case you don't take down the hand right away you're done, so again position matters little for the rest of the hand. No? Your thoughts??? Ed,
I have to say there are two things I don’t completely agree on with you in this article. I don’t think you’re wrong, but I would like to add a bit more to what you say, see if you agree, so if you don’t mind…
1) When you call a 3-bet with a suited connector or a similar hand on the assumption that the pot will be big enough on the flop, so that your intention is to (check)raise all in in case you hit a strong draw or else you fold, then your position shouldn’t matter much, thus you should be able to call out of position as well, which will only make you the more annoying to play against….
2) That is, you intend to fold unless the flop instead falls very dry, in which case you will (check)raise, because as opposed to what you say that won’t cost you more than doing it your way, which was to call the flop, bet the turn. Doing it your way costs (according to your example) 32 + 55 = 87. But raising 2.5 – 3 his bet directly on the flop would cost somewhere between 80 – 96. Argument for doing it your way, in position would be, you gain confidence your hand is best thanks to him checking the turn to you, or you can fold if he bets. Argument for raising directly on the flop in or out of position would be that you won’t let your opponent make his hand you for no higher cost than his mandatory continuation bet. And in case you don’t take down the hand right away you’re done, so again position matters little for the rest of the hand. No?
Your thoughts???

]]> By: Greyzy http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/combatting-light-3-bets-by-4-betting-or-calling-in-position.html/comment-page-1#comment-13254 Greyzy Wed, 07 May 2008 20:29:01 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/?p=445#comment-13254 @ Stuart - I don't use PT3, but nevertheless: what would be the ranges for 3-betting? What's the definition? I guess something like: 100% = all hands played from the blinds where there was a raise; 3bet% = fraction of those hands (that make up the 100%) where I reraised. After how many hands is that stat reliable? That would be hands that went into the 100%, right (not just all hands played even if there were no occasion for a reraise)? Greyzy @ Stuart – I don’t use PT3, but nevertheless: what would be the ranges for 3-betting?

What’s the definition? I guess something like: 100% = all hands played from the blinds where there was a raise; 3bet% = fraction of those hands (that make up the 100%) where I reraised.

After how many hands is that stat reliable? That would be hands that went into the 100%, right (not just all hands played even if there were no occasion for a reraise)?

Greyzy

]]> By: Ed Miller http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/combatting-light-3-bets-by-4-betting-or-calling-in-position.html/comment-page-1#comment-13253 Ed Miller Wed, 07 May 2008 14:55:18 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/?p=445#comment-13253 Tony, I think you can win in small online no-limit without really playing the light 3-bet game at all. You can fold to 3-bets without the goods, and you can not light 3-bet. But I think there are some spots to go ahead and do it and make some extra money. And if you always have the goods when you 3-bet you'll miss out on some action you could otherwise get from the better players. Tony,

I think you can win in small online no-limit without really playing the light 3-bet game at all. You can fold to 3-bets without the goods, and you can not light 3-bet. But I think there are some spots to go ahead and do it and make some extra money. And if you always have the goods when you 3-bet you’ll miss out on some action you could otherwise get from the better players.

]]> By: Tony http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/combatting-light-3-bets-by-4-betting-or-calling-in-position.html/comment-page-1#comment-13252 Tony Wed, 07 May 2008 10:51:00 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/?p=445#comment-13252 Ed, Leatherass made a comment in a thread over at Stoxpoker a little while ago pertaining to this topic. He said a simple way of dealing with it is to fold everything except 99+ and AQ, with which you 4 bet and call a shove. Do you agree that thsi is a reasonable line to take until you reach the higher limits, or do you think that this would be giving up too much? Also, do you regard light three-betting as necessary to be a winning player in the online games these days, particularly since very soon all the regulars will have three betting stats on their HUDs? Great article by the way. Ed, Leatherass made a comment in a thread over at Stoxpoker a little while ago pertaining to this topic. He said a simple way of dealing with it is to fold everything except 99+ and AQ, with which you 4 bet and call a shove.

Do you agree that thsi is a reasonable line to take until you reach the higher limits, or do you think that this would be giving up too much?

Also, do you regard light three-betting as necessary to be a winning player in the online games these days, particularly since very soon all the regulars will have three betting stats on their HUDs?

Great article by the way.

]]> By: Stuart http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/combatting-light-3-bets-by-4-betting-or-calling-in-position.html/comment-page-1#comment-13251 Stuart Wed, 07 May 2008 08:23:46 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/?p=445#comment-13251 @ Greyzy - PokerTracker doesn't give you 3 bet stats. PokerTracker 3 does, as does holdem manager. Realtime HUD does too which is amazing and free, unfortunately is has stopped being developed. It still works on most sites though. You need a pretty big sample. I think a good defence against 3 betting is doing it yourself and making up the lost bets that way, + a few more hopefully. Ed, can we have 3 betting made simple :-) @ Greyzy – PokerTracker doesn’t give you 3 bet stats. PokerTracker 3 does, as does holdem manager. Realtime HUD does too which is amazing and free, unfortunately is has stopped being developed. It still works on most sites though. You need a pretty big sample.

I think a good defence against 3 betting is doing it yourself and making up the lost bets that way, + a few more hopefully.

Ed, can we have 3 betting made simple :-)

]]> By: Greyzy http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/combatting-light-3-bets-by-4-betting-or-calling-in-position.html/comment-page-1#comment-13250 Greyzy Wed, 07 May 2008 07:22:50 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/?p=445#comment-13250 > Declan, "How many hands do you need before the 3bet% stat is accurate enough to act on?" I didn't know that there's such a stat! Does PokerTracker calculate it? What are the value ranges (I guess there should be at least 3 categories like "rarely"; "normal"; "too often = light")? Thanks! > Declan,

“How many hands do you need before the 3bet% stat is accurate enough to act on?”

I didn’t know that there’s such a stat! Does PokerTracker calculate it? What are the value ranges (I guess there should be at least 3 categories like “rarely”; “normal”; “too often = light”)?

Thanks!

]]> By: Declan McKenna http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/combatting-light-3-bets-by-4-betting-or-calling-in-position.html/comment-page-1#comment-13248 Declan McKenna Tue, 06 May 2008 21:20:11 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/?p=445#comment-13248 My problem is determining when someone is 3betting light. How many hands do you need before the 3bet% stat is accurate enough to act on? Also what values would you consider as light/regular 3betting and would it change for FR and 6max? My problem is determining when someone is 3betting light.
How many hands do you need before the 3bet% stat is accurate enough to act on?

Also what values would you consider as light/regular 3betting and would it change for FR and 6max?

]]> By: Alex http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/combatting-light-3-bets-by-4-betting-or-calling-in-position.html/comment-page-1#comment-13247 Alex Tue, 06 May 2008 19:50:46 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/?p=445#comment-13247 Nice article! Nice article!

]]> By: Tony http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/combatting-light-3-bets-by-4-betting-or-calling-in-position.html/comment-page-1#comment-13246 Tony Tue, 06 May 2008 19:19:06 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/?p=445#comment-13246 Bill, the hijack position is two off the button (in other words the position to the right of the cutoff). Bill, the hijack position is two off the button (in other words the position to the right of the cutoff).

]]> By: Bill Tucker http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/combatting-light-3-bets-by-4-betting-or-calling-in-position.html/comment-page-1#comment-13244 Bill Tucker Tue, 06 May 2008 17:37:11 +0000 http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/?p=445#comment-13244 What's the hijack position? What’s the hijack position?

]]>