In a game as you describe that is so loose with such short stacks (a 30BB stack being one of the largest you’ve seen), an ace-high flush draw will typically be an EXCELLENT hand to get your money in with on the flop, often significantly better than top pair, top kicker or even an overpair.

You will hit the nut flush about 1/3 of the time for a nearly automatic win no matter how many opponents you have, and another 12% of the time or so you’ll hit an ace that could be enough to outdraw that top pair or overpair. In general if you get all-in three ways against top pair and, say, a straight draw… you will have the best odds of anyone to win the hand.

I know the game is soft but…

1) 12 players playing on a huge pool table with no dealer.

2) It is so slow it is like watching paint dry especially if you are waiting for big hands to play.

3) If there is no raise you will see 10, at least, to the flop every time. I have seen all 12.

4) If there is a raise, say to $4, virtually everybody at the table, ‘ceptin ole Natchez will call.

5) If there is a further raise, then you’ll see six to eight to the flop.

6) What about an all-in? Two to four, five or six callers.

7) They let you “go south” in this game. You can sell chips to any player at the table at any time or you can take any portion of your chips to the proprietor and cash them in and play with the remainder.

The atmosphere is loud and raucous and does not contribute to my ability to play well. Really loud.

9) All chips in the game are valued at $1 and there is every color poker chip on the table and in your stack that you can imagine. Sometimes after a particularly big pot there are so many chips on the table that it seems they should use a shovel to get the chips to the winning player.

10) Smoking (ugh!) is allowed, and at least 1/3 to 1/4 do it constantly.

Man, talk about Aces getting busted, this is the place. And, of course, everybody with 8s up plus AK goes all-in preflop too.

I bought in for $60 last time. Most people buy in for $20, $30, $40 or $50. I have never seen anybody buy in for more than $60, though I heard about one guy that bought in for $100.

In about 1 1/2 hours I had played maybe 13 – 15 hands. Possibly a few more. I never saw anything past the flop. I usually completed the SB or checked from the BB. On one hand I had As7s so I completed the SM. The BB raise to $4, and here it came around the table like a tidal wave! Then a few positions before me someone re-raised by $8, making it $12 to go. When it got to me, I foolishly called because of all the money in the pot and the pot odds! That was the only hand that I even saw the flop with. Then, when I hit nothing I had to ditch the hand to a big raise (for this table).

I got up with $30 of my original chips left. I was tired anyway.

There is a good player there that said to me, “Kinda redefines what you learned about poker, doesn’t it?” Yep.

Then, in a few minutes I saw him go all-in with an Ac6c when two clubs came on the flop. One guy thought for five minutes then called needing a 10 for Big Broadway. He hit it on the river!

I asked the better player, “You went all in with Ac6c with four to a flush?” He replied, “Heck, in this game you have to.”

Well, of course, I don’t see it that way.

I am not anxious to play there anymore even though there are almost no other games available around here. It is just too slow, too loud, and too crazy. If I do, I will take ear plugs, and I had better be prepared to stay for a long, long time.

Natchez

You don’t understand how these games go at times.
How about a guy who straddles $150?

Or $1-2 no-limit in early position you got AA raise it to $12 next guy goes all in like he has the last 20 hands. You are not going blow out these players. These player drive the action and the rest are along for the ride. 5-7 way action is typical. These type games don’t happen every night. Talking with guys that have played no-limit here longer than I, I guess there were more of these type of players a round but several have gone broke…..go figure.

I have asked: “Is the deck randomized and SET before the first card is dealt?” They say yes. I am worried that they might do things like re-randomize it after the down cards, after the flop and after the turn card. I want a SET deck that is not touched once the down cards are dealt.

How can there be a true, radomized deck anway when they don’t take the burn cards out? It will never be like a live, dealt hand.

The time required to put the burn cards out there would be milliseconds. Why not do it?

Of course, if they did, all we’d have is their word that the deck is truly randomized.

Natcheztoo

Regardless of the vagueries of last night, getting in with the best of it is just going to win over time. Getting in with hands that don’t have high card value doesn’t seem like a winning strategy. They’ll take their fair share of pots and bust some big hands for sure. But over time, they just don’t make a strong hand often enough to be profitable if there is no post flop play.

With 22 for example, that is almost never going to hold up as the best hand against 5 others without making a set. So, you need to make a set to get paid. You are 8-1 to make a set and really need more like 10-1 for the times that a bigger pair oversets you. So, if it costs you 50 into a pot of 300, you’re getting 6-1. You’ll drag that 300 a reasonable amount of time, but I don’t see how you can call there even if you make a set occasionally.

If you have AA against 98s and 4 other hands that are any pair, any suited, any broadway, the AA hand has about 40% equity. It’s a dog to hold up, but a favorite to profit getting 6-1. The 98s have about 15% equity. The other hands have about 10%. If the 98s is against 5 any, any, any hands, it is even money with those hands. When you account for the rake, it’s a loser.

Change that AA to AKs and now you have 25% equity, which is still a favorite to make money over time, but you have to take a lot of pain to get there.

I would guess, though, that these games are lousy places to make money. There’s a lot of gamble, so you really have to be able to see a lot of hands to get everything to balance out. Over 50,000 hands I’m sure you’d see a nice profit sticking to the top 10% of hands, but that’s a huge amount of play. With so many big pots and chip wrangling, there are probably on the order of 40 hands played per hour. That’s 240 hands a night. To get some reasonable sample, you’d need 250 nights of play and a bankroll that you’d be willing to take some big swings with. That’s a tall order.

I totally overlooked this comment. MTDog-7, you have an immense amount to learn about poker. Have you read Getting Started in Hold ‘Em yet?

The decline in limit poker has really led to an unhealthy attitude among those who’ve only played NLHE players toward inferior players more generally and this issue of protecting one’s hand specifically.

For one thing, you shouldn’t be trying to blow people out of pots by preventing them from making bad decisions. If someone’s going to call raises with 83-off*, in general you want to encourage this, not try to raise enough to prevent them from doing so. Of course in NLHE you can charge an amount that’s incorrect but still may be called.

The bigger issue is that AA has no divine right to win against 83, and for that matter it’s not the state of Montana’s obligation to maximize your profit at poker. If (in deep-stack NL, Montana-style) you’re routinely winning $10 when AA holds up and losing $1000 when 83 draws out, you may not be a very good postflop player. But blowing the “GAMBLOORS” out of the pot is probably not the answer.

Never forget that the “GAMBLOORS” are your customers. If you treat them with respect and help them enjoy themselves, they’ll be more likely to give you repeat business.

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*Are the games really this loose still? Every once in a while you see a player this bad in Tunica $1-3 games, but it’s relatively rare. Maybe I need to move to Montana.

I played 6 hours in game like this last night 75% of the pots capped pre-flop and I took an number of pot in late position with calls with hand like 9Ts, T7s, 68s , 89s ect. AA busted, QQ busted, KK held up folded to pre flop raise. JJ held up once bust 2 times. 22 made set 6 times by myself and other players. Pocket Aces held up twice busted 7 times. Selective memory………..I don’t think so.