Can A No-Limit Game Be Too Loose?

Well, I’ll give you an example maybe you can comment on..

I was at a game on Thursday, where it was all in, pre flop, every hand. No one had any choice, because there were two guys at the table that were making it that way. (I got up and moved to the other game in the place) 1/2, 200 max buy-in, both guys were approaching 400 when I sat down, and one was approaching 1000 when i left

Nice post Ed. I think you hit the nail on the head with your “roller coaster ride” remark. People just aren’t ready for the increased variance that ultra-loose games bring. So they lose a few buy-ins, get discouraged, and leave the game before they can turn it around.

Eric – I think even I could beat the game that you describe. I’d just fold all my junk hands and call the all-ins with my good ones. You tend to lose a lot of blinds and/or antes by doing all that folding, but when you win you double, triple or quadruple up to make up for it.

Of course this won’t work if your opponents are smart enough to catch on and they start folding when you enter a pot, but according to your description there were at least two players at the table who wouldn’t do that…

Not sure I understand Ed – Here’s how I see it, please tell me if I’m missing something.

I agree that the maniac(s) should get called a lot, but I wouldn’t be doing “a lot” of calling. I only want to call when my hand has a significant advantage over a random hand, which by definition means that I will be folding more than half of my hands.

If others at the table are playing correctly, then the maniacs will be getting called a lot because someone at the table will have a “better than random” hand. I imagine the maniac(s) would get up and leave if that happened as you said.

So maybe when you said “fairly frequently” you mean “less than half of the time but not a whole lot less”?

Ed;
I don’t agree here in Montana we have a POT Limit of $300. What can happen is someone moves all in and you get several callers the more callers the less the cost so with 6 players in the pot it’s only $50 each. This all before the flop. To win you don’t play big pairs but suited connecting cards as Ace, Kings and Queens get busted by trash in most every hand. I have seen 10 players in the pot for cost of $30 each. This is not Poker just a lottery. It maybe true in a true No Limit game it can’t be too loose, in a Capped Pot game it can be too loose.

I never disagree with Ed, but…

I consider myself a tournament player. I want to under go a transmogrification to a live, cash player. My initial attempts have not been good.

I am not yet to the stage where I can buy-in three, four or five times; I have money to burn, but I don’t like the smell of smoke.

I have played three times in the most absurdly loose game. I busted out twice and quit, and the other time I quit with most of my chips intact. One woman player in this game characterized it as , “Bingo.” That is pretty damn close.

It is a $1 – $2 blind game in which most of the players buy-in for $20 or $40.00. I bought in for $40, $50, and $80.00. There is always a full table of 12 players, and I have not varied my play yet. I am patient, wait for top ten starting hands or better. I fold and fold and fold.

Meanwhile, 9, 10 or 11 players limp. Or, if one raises to $4 or $6 there will be 6, 7, 8 to the flop. If somebody had raised all-in (usually they have $10, $20 or $30) there would be 3, 4, or 5 callers. And this goes on hand after hand!

There is constant re-buying taking place. Usually for $20.00. I have see some gosh awful players win over $500.00 at this game.

I know in my heart that this game can be beaten. I haven’t quite figured out how to do it. My original plan was to buy-in for $100, play very tight until I picked up AA, KK or QQ, and go all-in. I do not think the fact that I had not played much up till that point would register on this group of poker dummies.

I have taken all of Ed’s comments seriously, and will be glad to hear if he, or anybody else, has any further comments or recommendations.

Natcheztoo

MTDog–can you explain what you mean by a $300 Pot limit? If I bet $50 and get five callers, is everyone else at the table just forced to fold? Or do you mean that if there’s ten players at the table, the maximum bet is $30, but if there are only 5, the max bet is $60?

And regardless of the structure, you’re wrong. AA-QQ are not getting cracked by trash almost every hand. These are premium hands that will be the biggest winners in every type of game, even in a limit no-fold-em hold’em game where you can’t possibly price people out. You simply have selective memory.

I think that the majority of us probably tend to remember when our QQ gets busted by 37o runner/runner after the flop for a full buy-in (that one still hurts) but I’d do it again in a heartbeat. Anyone who goes all in for a buy-in from EP has to be at least seen as suspicious, and I’m with Ed, in that I’ll call relatively loosley as long as I know it’s going to be heads up with the raiser, or that I have QQ+ or AKs if there are multiple players. Sometimes I feel like a bit of a donk when my A10o is up against AK or AQ, but hey, against a massive all-in like that in my experience it’s not a huge hand, and sometimes something as weird as 22 or 33 or just plain junk. I don’t see how you can give away your edge just because there’s more money on the table. If that’s a concern then we need to find a suitably sized game. As for shortstackers, or games with a small buy in (50BBs or less) I would have thought that this would be pretty common and there’s no getting away from it. Loosening up a little sounds OK to me, and, like I said, I reckon we just remember the times we lost rather than the times some crazy guy goes all-in with trash and we call with AA and double up. (I can’t remember anything about their losing hand then – I only remember them when I’ve lost and they’ve put the ‘beat’ on me!)

Okay here the deal on the $300 Pot limit in Montana. The State law is that there will be no more than $300 in any one Pot. So if I bet $150 and next player calls it’s $150 to that player, then a another player calls it’s $100 and the fourth it’s $75 and fifth $60. Now the early players get a refund so it’s only $60 to each. So what happens is that stack size does not matter beyond $150 as that’s the default max bet. What also happens is because you can’t be pushed out and quality hands can not be protected them selves GAMBLOORS are rewarded for their donk raises and calls with hand like 83 os.
once you get the the fifth caller in a capped pot, pot odds make it proper to call with ATC.

I played 6 hours in game like this last night 75% of the pots capped pre-flop and I took an number of pot in late position with calls with hand like 9Ts, T7s, 68s , 89s ect. AA busted, QQ busted, KK held up folded to pre flop raise. JJ held up once bust 2 times. 22 made set 6 times by myself and other players. Pocket Aces held up twice busted 7 times. Selective memory………..I don’t think so.

What also happens is because you can’t be pushed out and quality hands can not be protected them selves GAMBLOORS are rewarded for their donk raises and calls with hand like 83 os.

The decline in limit poker has really led to an unhealthy attitude among those who’ve only played NLHE players toward inferior players more generally and this issue of protecting one’s hand specifically.

For one thing, you shouldn’t be trying to blow people out of pots by preventing them from making bad decisions. If someone’s going to call raises with 83-off*, in general you want to encourage this, not try to raise enough to prevent them from doing so. Of course in NLHE you can charge an amount that’s incorrect but still may be called.

The bigger issue is that AA has no divine right to win against 83, and for that matter it’s not the state of Montana’s obligation to maximize your profit at poker. If (in deep-stack NL, Montana-style) you’re routinely winning $10 when AA holds up and losing $1000 when 83 draws out, you may not be a very good postflop player. But blowing the “GAMBLOORS” out of the pot is probably not the answer.

Never forget that the “GAMBLOORS” are your customers. If you treat them with respect and help them enjoy themselves, they’ll be more likely to give you repeat business.

—
*Are the games really this loose still? Every once in a while you see a player this bad in Tunica $1-3 games, but it’s relatively rare. Maybe I need to move to Montana.

once you get the the fifth caller in a capped pot, pot odds make it proper to call with ATC.

I totally overlooked this comment. MTDog-7, you have an immense amount to learn about poker. Have you read Getting Started in Hold ‘Em yet?

…snip…
I played 6 hours in game like this last night 75% of the pots capped pre-flop and I took an number of pot in late position with calls with hand like 9Ts, T7s, 68s , 89s ect. AA busted, QQ busted, KK held up folded to pre flop raise. JJ held up once bust 2 times. 22 made set 6 times by myself and other players. Pocket Aces held up twice busted 7 times. Selective memory………..I don’t think so.
…snip…

Regardless of the vagueries of last night, getting in with the best of it is just going to win over time. Getting in with hands that don’t have high card value doesn’t seem like a winning strategy. They’ll take their fair share of pots and bust some big hands for sure. But over time, they just don’t make a strong hand often enough to be profitable if there is no post flop play.

With 22 for example, that is almost never going to hold up as the best hand against 5 others without making a set. So, you need to make a set to get paid. You are 8-1 to make a set and really need more like 10-1 for the times that a bigger pair oversets you. So, if it costs you 50 into a pot of 300, you’re getting 6-1. You’ll drag that 300 a reasonable amount of time, but I don’t see how you can call there even if you make a set occasionally.

If you have AA against 98s and 4 other hands that are any pair, any suited, any broadway, the AA hand has about 40% equity. It’s a dog to hold up, but a favorite to profit getting 6-1. The 98s have about 15% equity. The other hands have about 10%. If the 98s is against 5 any, any, any hands, it is even money with those hands. When you account for the rake, it’s a loser.

Change that AA to AKs and now you have 25% equity, which is still a favorite to make money over time, but you have to take a lot of pain to get there.

I would guess, though, that these games are lousy places to make money. There’s a lot of gamble, so you really have to be able to see a lot of hands to get everything to balance out. Over 50,000 hands I’m sure you’d see a nice profit sticking to the top 10% of hands, but that’s a huge amount of play. With so many big pots and chip wrangling, there are probably on the order of 40 hands played per hour. That’s 240 hands a night. To get some reasonable sample, you’d need 250 nights of play and a bankroll that you’d be willing to take some big swings with. That’s a tall order.

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All I worry about is the true randomization of the deck.

I have asked: “Is the deck randomized and SET before the first card is dealt?” They say yes. I am worried that they might do things like re-randomize it after the down cards, after the flop and after the turn card. I want a SET deck that is not touched once the down cards are dealt.

How can there be a true, radomized deck anway when they don’t take the burn cards out? It will never be like a live, dealt hand.

The time required to put the burn cards out there would be milliseconds. Why not do it?

Of course, if they did, all we’d have is their word that the deck is truly randomized.

Natcheztoo

AKQJ10;

You don’t understand how these games go at times.
How about a guy who straddles $150?

Or $1-2 no-limit in early position you got AA raise it to $12 next guy goes all in like he has the last 20 hands. You are not going blow out these players. These player drive the action and the rest are along for the ride. 5-7 way action is typical. These type games don’t happen every night. Talking with guys that have played no-limit here longer than I, I guess there were more of these type of players a round but several have gone broke…..go figure.

There is a $1-$2 game here in Natchez that is that loose all the time. Heck, looser. Is that possible?

I know the game is soft but…

1) 12 players playing on a huge pool table with no dealer.

2) It is so slow it is like watching paint dry especially if you are waiting for big hands to play.

3) If there is no raise you will see 10, at least, to the flop every time. I have seen all 12.

4) If there is a raise, say to $4, virtually everybody at the table, ‘ceptin ole Natchez will call.

5) If there is a further raise, then you’ll see six to eight to the flop.

6) What about an all-in? Two to four, five or six callers.

7) They let you “go south” in this game. You can sell chips to any player at the table at any time or you can take any portion of your chips to the proprietor and cash them in and play with the remainder.

The atmosphere is loud and raucous and does not contribute to my ability to play well. Really loud.

9) All chips in the game are valued at $1 and there is every color poker chip on the table and in your stack that you can imagine. Sometimes after a particularly big pot there are so many chips on the table that it seems they should use a shovel to get the chips to the winning player.

10) Smoking (ugh!) is allowed, and at least 1/3 to 1/4 do it constantly.

Man, talk about Aces getting busted, this is the place. And, of course, everybody with 8s up plus AK goes all-in preflop too.

I bought in for $60 last time. Most people buy in for $20, $30, $40 or $50. I have never seen anybody buy in for more than $60, though I heard about one guy that bought in for $100.

In about 1 1/2 hours I had played maybe 13 – 15 hands. Possibly a few more. I never saw anything past the flop. I usually completed the SB or checked from the BB. On one hand I had As7s so I completed the SM. The BB raise to $4, and here it came around the table like a tidal wave! Then a few positions before me someone re-raised by $8, making it $12 to go. When it got to me, I foolishly called because of all the money in the pot and the pot odds! That was the only hand that I even saw the flop with. Then, when I hit nothing I had to ditch the hand to a big raise (for this table).

I got up with $30 of my original chips left. I was tired anyway.

There is a good player there that said to me, “Kinda redefines what you learned about poker, doesn’t it?” Yep.

Then, in a few minutes I saw him go all-in with an Ac6c when two clubs came on the flop. One guy thought for five minutes then called needing a 10 for Big Broadway. He hit it on the river!

I asked the better player, “You went all in with Ac6c with four to a flush?” He replied, “Heck, in this game you have to.”

Well, of course, I don’t see it that way.

I am not anxious to play there anymore even though there are almost no other games available around here. It is just too slow, too loud, and too crazy. If I do, I will take ear plugs, and I had better be prepared to stay for a long, long time.

Natchez