A No-Limit Four-Bet Preflop Bluff

Just to drop this out here…if you’re looking to see a lot of 3 betting, PokerStars 1/2 NL 6 max is loaded with this stuff (I’m sure other limits there as well..but that’s what I play most of)

If he shoved on you, is it a call with $70?

I three-bet from the blinds somewhat light, but not with air, against suspected thieves. This is good to think about — how they would play optimally if they knew my range, i.e. how I should play against them if they’re doing the same thing.

For example, if a player’s PT steal % is 25% or higher, and he raises from the HJ or CO against my big blind, I might reraise A7s+, AT+, KQ, any two suited ten or above, any pair. Of course these hands will be hard to play OOP if he had a legitimate raise in the first place, but it’s the rather odd situation of semibluffing even though I suspect I’m ahead of his range.

I’d imagine very few players at NL50 play back as Ed suggests. Maybe starting around NL100 and above, where I’m just beginning to feel comfortable.

Here’s a problem that I run into frequently at $1-2 NL. What is a good strategy for when a complete stranger 3 bets the minimum? These players are often frustrating because though this often indicates great strength, they will often do it with hands like big suited aces, AJ-AKo, and smaller pocket pairs, and sometimes as an outright bluff. These players usually follow with a pot sized bet whether they hit or not.

If you were holding a hand like AK, how would you procede since you are probably going to miss the flop, but probably don’t care to get all in pre-flop?

@Lorin:

Usually a min3bet is giving you great odds to call and try to hit something. Against an unknown I usually work off the assumption that the mireraise is AA (“I’d better not reraise too much or I’ll lose my customer”) and that I’ll need to flop two pair or better, or a draw with sufficient implied odds that I’m willing to stay in. For this reason I’d rather have JTs or even KQo in this spot than AKo. Critical to my preflop call is, if I do outflop AA, I’m extremely likely to take their stack.

It sounds like you’re generally seeing more savvy minreraisers, though, in which case perhaps it’s a much tougher situation. If you’re confident AK is well ahead of their range, as it is against the range you described, then betting can’t be wrong. Getting most of the stack in preflop does neutralize your positional advantage, though, so I’d want to be sure that my cards provide a bigger advantage vs. the range.

I guess the problem here tends to happen when I have a hand like AQ, then I call and flop a Q. When I hit the Q, I tend to either get no action and get the pre-flop pot after they check, or run into something like KK. On the other hand, it seems like whenever I hit the A, they have AK. Maybe it is just bad luck, but it seems very difficult to defend against.

It is almost very tempting to try to emulate this style, but naturally it won’t make very much money in the long run. I guess that the main difficulty that I come across here is that as a whole, min-reraisers are difficult to put into a category as complete strangers.

In other words, I usually play 7 tables at once and don’t tend to spend a lot of time examining the players and often go by how the “average” player plays. Problem is, the average min re-raiser has a very wide range of hands and therefore can steal frequently post flop with applied aggression, and/or can put you to some very difficult situations.

Hi Ed,

Great blog! It’s always a great read.

Was wondering if you could explain the reasoning for your 4-bet size? Is just under 4x his 3-bet standard for you? Or did you have >100BB stacks or something? I thought somewhere between 2.5x and 3x his 3-bet was the right amount?

Cheers,
Barry

@Lorin:

Against a “standard” reraiser, top pair first or second kicker is ofter going to be losing to TPTK (AK) or an overpair. I was only positing that a hand as weak as AQ might be ahead of their range because you seem to imply they’re reraising light.

Incidentally, if you’re seven-tabling online $1-2 then I’d think PT and a HUD are no-brainer investments. They won’t answer a question like, “When does my opponent min3bet?” but they’ll give you a quick overview of preflop aggression so you can decide how to interpret the 3-bet from there.

To be clear, when in doubt I fold to a reraise. If I’m moderately sure I’m getting attacked, as per Ed’s post, I should probably think about 4-bet bluffing a lot more than I do.

@AKQJT

I actually make frequent use of PT but my game play gets seriously slowed by Poker Ace. Could you actually give me a short breakdown on how to interpret the aggression factor? This is actually a major question that I have had about PT.

And yes, they often do re-raise light, but normally are strong in this situation. I guess that it doesn’t hurt to get bluffed out a few times though every once in a while, right?

Is this 6-max or full ring?

…snip…
Here’s a problem that I run into frequently at $1-2 NL. What is a good strategy for when a complete stranger 3 bets the minimum?
…snip…

oop?

…snip…
These players are often frustrating because though this often indicates great strength, they will often do it with hands like big suited aces, AJ-AKo, and smaller pocket pairs, and sometimes as an outright bluff. These players usually follow with a pot sized bet whether they hit or not.

If you were holding a hand like AK, how would you procede since you are probably going to miss the flop, but probably don’t care to get all in pre-flop?

…snip…

If you are playing 6-max, get min-3bet by a guy in the blinds, then I believe you should be raising and driving towards all-in. This is a bad A more often than it is a big pair. The nature of AK is that it does very well in all-in pots against that sort of range. The villains range is naturally biased away from AA and KK, it plays very well in all-in preflop pots when there is an overlay involved, and it makes your opponents have real hands when the 3-bet you because they know you won’t put up with it.

I would generally fold you’re middling A’s. AT, AJ, and maybe AQ depending on the table.

I would take flops with all pairs and some suited connectors.

I would also shove over some of their c-bets when the flop is unlikely to have connected with a big card holding. You are sometimes going to lose a big pot this way, but again, you are seizing control of the table and demanding that the villain has a hand when they pull a stunt like that. If the flop comes T26r and you shove over the top, they really need something like QQ+ to continue.

Lorin, if you think they are min3betting you with QQ+ and AK, then you should be folding hands like AQ as you want to avoid potentially dominated hands. But you can call with hands like TJs or pairs if you have the implied odds to outflop them, as you are unlikely to be dominated and can play fit or fold on the flop.

If you think they are min3betting you light and that AK/AQ is ahead of their range, then you should be 4betting them as you have the equity edge. You don’t want to call and rely on hitting your hand as you will mostly miss the flop and lose your equity edge.

I realize that often AQ and AJ will be behind their range, the only problem is that since I play with many of the same players day after day, I simply can’t fold here pre-flop because now I would be encouraging other players here to take a shot at me with minimal risk. This is particularly true when raising from the button. It would be far too easy for the blinds to just min re-raise and get a fold.

Pushing with AK is actually the best play- the problem was that I was getting squeamish for a bit because I recently went on a 3 week run where I was actually showing a net loss with AK because I was losing about 4 out of 5 coin flips, and frequently missing the flop when not all in.

I used this one the other day. The same cat 3-bet me from the small blinds 3 times, so I 4-bet KTo and then he folded quickly. Felt good.

I realize that often AQ and AJ will be behind their range, the only problem is that since I play with many of the same players day after day, I simply can’t fold here pre-flop because now I would be encouraging other players here to take a shot at me with minimal risk.

But that’s sort of self-contradictory. If they’re routinely taking shots at you with less than AJ, then you’re probably ahead of their range! Or conversely, if they’re only “taking shots” with better than AJ, you should delighted they’re inducing you to fold inferior hands!

Now, I realize this is a bit like a pendulum seeking equilibrium here. It will take some mistakes before you learn how to calibrate your range against their range. But that’s part of the learning curve in tougher games.

Speaking of which — sorry I haven’t replied to your question about PAHUD. I’m just learning it. Also, I don’t understand PT aggression factor real well, but I infer bets and raises are considered aggressive, checks and calls are consider non-aggressive, and the number is the ratio of the two. Anyway, the most salient part is high number = aggressive player.

So regarding PAHUD — it would probably help you immensely in table selection. Maybe you’re just playing at tough stakes, but even so you’d like to find the easiest opponents at those stakes. PAHUD will quickly pay for itself IMO. Just open a bunch of tables, process the hand histories in PT, come back in 10 or 15 minutes, and see where the easy tables appear to be.

That’s a brief explanation, but I’m happy to go into more detail if it’s helpful. I just watched the great free PAHUD tutorial on Stox which is what motivated me to finally buy the thing.

Good luck at the tables!